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Old 09-20-2009, 05:58 PM  
GBR
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The moisture barrier is required by code to be outside the studs under brick veneer with a 1-4-1/2" max. gap to the sheathing OR the mortar or grout fill over a weather-resistant membrane... IRC 703.7.4.2

Water resistant membrane not required if sheathing is water repellent... 703.7.4.2
This would be the foil covered foam sheathing you removed. Now you have nothing to prevent moisture from getting to the edges of your studs, and nothing to hold the wall in rack from the shear forces. (Wind, earthquake, etc.)
The ties are required on brick veneer every 24" max. horizontal spacing..... IRC 703.7.4.1

I would try to install builder's paper (in strips, overlapping by 2") on the studs and install
the foam board in the bays -if needed there is a 6.5R factor for 2x4 walls: Dow at Lowe's: 1" x 8' x 4' R-6.5 Polyisocyanurate Rigid Foam Insulation

And a Simpson strap inside to prevent racking: WB/WBC/TWB/RCWB Wall Bracing
Be safe, Gary



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Old 09-20-2009, 08:16 PM  
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i did not remove the wall ties so i dont think it safe structurally
how do you suggest fastening the paper to the outside of the studs?



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Old 09-20-2009, 08:19 PM  
gopher
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F150 Board 2 In. x 48 In. x 96 In. - 270895 at The Home Depot

i was looking at this today you think it will be ok?
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Old 09-20-2009, 11:43 PM  
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What exactly is the purpose of having a moisture barrier outside of the studs?

Is it to prevent moisture from getting into the wooden stud wall system?

If so, they why couldn't he compensate for the potential rotting of the bottom plate on his wall by putting borate rods (Impel or Cobra rods) into his bottom plate to prevent wood rot of that bottom plate, and just let the outside surface of the wall studs get wet the occasional time that there's a hurricane in Detroit?

I know that's not what the code says, but wouldn't that protect the wall system from moisture? After all, if moisture is going to penetrate the brickwork, almost all of that moisture is going to dribble down the inside surface of the brick veneer. It's not going to jump from the brick veneer onto the insulation in anything less than a hurricane force wind, and in this case, if Gopher has extruded foam insulation between his studs, that water is gonna drip off the insulation and just get the wood studs wet for a day or two until they dry. In that case, the only concern is the bottom plate of the exterior wall which may get wet from water penetration through the brickwork.

PRG, Inc. - Impel Rods

Gopher:
Borate rods (either Impel or Cobra rods) are a borate compound that dissolves in water. Borate rods are preferred by owners of log homes because borates are highly soluble in water, and so borates are the ONLY wood preservative that will diffuse through the entire cross section of a log to protect it from wood rot. Telephone utilities use both Impel and Cobra rods to protect telephone poles from rotting in the ground, and it's because the borates migrate through the entire cross section of the pole. The wetter the wood, the faster the borates dissolve and diffuse. Unless the wood is wet, the borates don't dissolve and don't diffuse.

I have 6 borate rods in each of many of the wooden window frames of my apartment block. If those window frames ever get wet to the point where they might rot, the borate rods begin to dissolve and the borates diffuse throughout the wood killing mildew and mold, including the wood rot fungus.

Borate wood preservatives are much more popular in Europe. They're not common here in North America because we tend to go with either pressure treated lumber of copper and zinc naphthalene end cut preservatives here. The beauty of borates is that they they remain unaffected until the wood gets wet, and then they dissolve and disperse throughout the wood to protect it from wood rot (and other fungi). Also, borates are the only wood preservative that's environmentally friendly. They are highly toxic to fungi and molds, but mammals like people and pets can just about eat borates without getting sick. Your typical borax used for doing laundry contains borates similar to those used in Impel rods and Boracol wood preservatives, and we wash our clothes in that stuff and wear those clothes all day with no health effects whatsoever. Also, although everyone calls them "Impel" rods, the liquid equivalent goes by many different names, depending on who's selling it. It can be called Borocol, Boratreat, Bora-Care, etc. It's all the same stuff being sold under different names.

PRG, Inc. - Impel Rods

Borates, Impel Rods, Cobra Rods, for natural pest control and rot protection in Log, Timber and Wood homes

Impel Borate Rods - Log Preservatives

But, what to do depends entirely on WHY your local building code requires a moisture barrier between the brick veneer and the wood stud wall. Hopefully GBR would know if that's because of water penetration into the wall system or not. If it is, then water will drip down your wall studs, but you may need to do something to protect the bottom plate of your wall.

The borate rods (Impel rods) you might find online are huge, often 3/4 inch in diameter by 4 inches long. Those are meant for logs in log homes and telephone poles. In my window frames I have 6 millimeter diameter by 60 millimeter (1/4 inch diameter by 2 3/8 inch long) Impel rods in 5/16 inch diameter holes, and I'd suggest those would be more than adequate for the bottom plates on your exterior walls.

What I'd suggest is that you finish your wall normally, and then drill through the baseboard into the bottom plate and insert an Impel rod in each hole. The hole has to be slightly larger in diameter than the rod to allow for the swelling of the rod that occurs as the Borate rod absorbs moisture and gets to the point of dissolving in the moisture in the wood. The depth of the hole is irrelevant. But, once a borate rod starts to swell, you cannot remove it from the hole it's in. Not easily anyhow.

I'm thinking that protecting the wood in your wall from rotting may be the second best alternative to preventing it from getting wet in the first place.

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Old 09-23-2009, 09:43 PM  
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Gopher:

Clearly, the thing you gotta do is find out exactly why your local building code requires a moisture barrier on the EXTERIOR of the wood studs. If it's simply to prevent water that drips through gaps in the mortar from getting onto the exterior of the wall, then I'd:

Open up gaps in the brick mortar right at the bottom of the wall and as high up on that wall as you can. A hole every 4 feet or so would be sufficient, and if possible it would be best to have the holes angled downward so that rain water drains outward rather than into your wall. The idea here is to mimic attic ventilation to dry the wall in winter; kinda like attic ventilation applied to walls. Air between the stud wall and the brickwork will be heated by heat loss from the house and will rise in the gap between the stud wall and brick veneer to escape through the holes near the top of the wall. That will draw cold dry outdoor air into that same space. And, as it warms from heat loss through the insulation, it too will warm and absorb any moisture present and carry it to the outside through the top holes as well. This heat loss driven convective current will continue 24/7 all winter long, keeping your wall dry. Putting the holes through the vertical brick mortar joints at a downward angle will allow air convection through the wall, but will prevent rain penetration through it.

The second thing I'd do is finish your wall normally with baseboards, etc. And, drill through the baseboards with a 1/4 inch drill and slide in some 6 millimeter diameter Borate rods. If the bottom plate of your wall ever gets wet enough that there is a risk of wood rot, the borate rods will dissolve and disperse throughout the wood, killing any mold or fungus that might feed on that wood. You can buy small plastic caps to fill those holes from any place that sells O-rings. That's because most places that sell O-rings also rebuild pneumatic and hydraulic valves, and once the valve is rebuilt, they put plastic caps in all the ports to prevent dirt from getting into the valve. You can use those same caps to plug the holes in your baseboards. You want to drill the hole deep enough so that the 60 mm (2 1/2 inch long) borate rod is centered in the bottom plate of the wall, preferably between studs so that your drill bit doesn't hit any nails.

But, the immediate order of business is to find out what's behind the requirement to have a moisture barrier on the exterior of that inner wood stud wall.

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Old 12-06-2009, 10:44 AM  
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[QUOTE=Nestor_Kelebay;34860]What exactly is the purpose of having a moisture barrier outside of the studs?

Is it to prevent moisture from getting into the wooden stud wall system?
************************************************** ******

Yes, a MOISTURE barrier is needed on the exterior side of the studs to protect the studs and also any insulation. A moisture barrier breathes.

A VAPOR barrier is needed towards the room side of any heated exterior walls(between the drywall and the studs) . A vapor barrier, usually a 6 mil poly sheeting will not breathe.

Now go back to whatever you were doing before getting involved in building practices that you seem to know not too much about.



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