DIY Home Improvement, Remodeling & Repair Forum > DIY Home Improvement > Plumbing Forum > Any advice on picking a kitchen faucet?




Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-09-2010, 06:45 AM  
Speedbump
Water well etc.
 
Speedbump's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Riverview, Fl.
Posts: 428
Liked 22 Times on 21 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Quote:
Speedbump: I expect you're thinking of a Tub & Shower faucet. These have anti-scald systems on them that automatically restrict the flow through the hot or cold water supply pipes if there's a pressure drop in the other supply pipe. That helps maintain a uniform shower temperature and prevents people from getting scalded in the shower if someone flushes a toilet, say. You can screw up the settings of the adjusting screws of a T&S faucet, but you shouldn't ruin the faucet by monkeying with the adjusting screws. And, kitchen deck faucets don't have that anti-scald system on them anyhow.
No actually I was referring to the Moen faucet the Wife bought about 8 years ago. It had very poor flow, so I took it apart and found a porcelain gadget inside that could only be modified by my way of thinking with a drill or dremel tool. Well, let me be the first to tell you, that didn't work out well for me. She had to buy another faucet cause I really messed up the other one. Some of these aren't so easy to increase flow with like I mentioned.

I haven't messed with the auto temp thingies yet and don't intend to.


__________________
FAQ's
Speedbump is offline  
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-09-2010, 09:13 AM  
Nestor_Kelebay
Emperor Penguin
 
Nestor_Kelebay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Posts: 1,844
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts

Default

Redwood is right about Moen using the Posi Temp and Exacttemp cartridges in their pressure balancing tub and shower faucets. Until now, I wasn't even aware that Moen used different cartridges in their anti-scald T&S faucets because I don't have any of those in my building. That law that requires anti-scald systems on T&S faucets is an American law and it doesn't apply here in Canada. I guess Moen was selling off it's inventory of non-pressure-balancing T&S faucets here in Canada because I could still buy them about 5 years ago. I just phoned my plumbing wholesaler this morning, and he says that all their Moen T&S faucets are anti-scald now, apparantly because that's all Moen makes now.

Anyhow, Redwood is right that on the tub & shower faucets, Moen has other cartridges. But, those other cartridges are not used in any Moen faucets except the anti-scald tub and shower faucets. So far as all the other Moen single lever faucets for both kitchen and bathroom sinks, they will still all use the 1225 cartridge.

Ilyaz: That 1225 cartridge is a good system. I don't have any complaints about it. But, the point I wanted to make is that if you're buying a Moen single lever kitchen sink faucet, the thing-a-ma-jig that actually controls the flow of water is the same in a $60 faucet as a $360 faucet. You may have presumed, as many people do, that if you pay more for something, you get better technology that's more reliable. The 1225 cartridge is very reliable. But, so far as the water control itself goes, you're not getting any better technology or reliability in an expensive single lever Moen kitchen faucet as a cheap single lever Moen kitchen faucet. I just thought that information was important to the decision making process.

Also, my experience has been that City of Winnipeg trucks parked on the street in my neighborhood will often result in a bunch of dripping faucets in my building over the following days to weeks (depending on how long it takes the tenant to tell me the faucet is dripping). I've heard of something called "whole house filters" for water supply systems in houses, but I don't know anything about them. If there were a way to strain out any foreign materials in the water coming into your house, that would go a long way to keeping ALL of the faucets (and toilet fill valves) in your house working and trouble-free. So, in my humble opinion, the way to increase the reliability of your kitchen faucet isn't to spend more on it, but to have a whole house filter screening out all the crap that might be in your water supply.



__________________

Last edited by Nestor_Kelebay; 02-09-2010 at 09:16 AM.
Nestor_Kelebay is offline  
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-09-2010, 09:41 AM  
Nestor_Kelebay
Emperor Penguin
 
Nestor_Kelebay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Posts: 1,844
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts

Default

Speedbump:

Moen faucets come with a lifetime guarantee, and they're pretty easy to get along with when it comes to ordering replacement parts. You can just phone up Moen and tell them you took the faucet apart to replace the cartridge in it, and your pet billy goat swallowed that porcelain piece. They'd just send you a new one in the mail.

Here's the exploded view of a typical Bubble Stream aerator that might fit on a kitchen sink or bathroom sink faucet:



That thing at the top is the end of the faucet spout. The aerator just screws into the end of the spout with either a male or female thread. It's a right hand thread so you unscrew the aerator by turning it the same way as a light bulb.

The flow restrictor is the stainess steel plate with the small hole in it. All of the water coming out the faucet has to go through that small (roughly 1/8 inch diameter hole). You can see how removing that flow restrictor and allowing flow through the entire cross section of the aerator would allow for very much higher flow rates out the faucet spout.

Apparantly, in and effort to save water, the USA passed a law setting limits on the flow rates that you can have on kitchen and bathroom sink faucets. Faucet manufacturers put flow restrictors into their faucets to meet those legal requirements, otherwise they can't sell their faucets in the USA.

You can increase the water flow out your faucet spout by simply removing the flow restrictor in your faucet's aerator, but don't nobody say that Nestor told them to do that cuz I'll get in trouble with your government and they might send some goon out to put the Fear of God in me.

Moen aerators are similar, but they have a little blue and red plastic disk with about 30 tiny holes in it. It's in the same relative location as is shown above; just under the rubber washer.

Removing the flow restrictor won't harm the faucet. If anything, by lowering the working pressure inside the faucet body, some of the O-rings in the faucet (notably any O-rings at the base of the spout) should actually last longer. But, you're probably going to end up wasting more water, and so your water bill might go up. If you don't waste any water, then it won't go up.

__________________

Last edited by Nestor_Kelebay; 02-09-2010 at 09:47 AM.
Nestor_Kelebay is offline  
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-09-2010, 10:22 AM  
Speedbump
Water well etc.
 
Speedbump's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Riverview, Fl.
Posts: 428
Liked 22 Times on 21 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Nestor,

I'm not that naive. I do know an aerator from a flow restricter.

If I took the aerator off the Moen faucet I had, the flow was still 2.5 gal per minute or thereabouts. I wanted a better than that. I managed to get more flow through the hand held device, but the main guts of the moan valve prevented more water from getting through to it.

These companies are making it very hard to increase flow through their valves. I'm sure our government is the reason for that. But if you want my advice, don't go messing around with one of those $100.00 plus faucets unless you want to take a chance of destroying it.

__________________
FAQ's
Speedbump is offline  
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-09-2010, 11:04 AM  
Nestor_Kelebay
Emperor Penguin
 
Nestor_Kelebay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Posts: 1,844
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts

Default

Well, it's not worth arguing over. I can't fit it in my head that removing the flow restrictor would harm anything, but you feel differently. We both have a right to our opinions. Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that.

__________________

Last edited by Nestor_Kelebay; 02-09-2010 at 11:51 AM.
Nestor_Kelebay is offline  
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-09-2010, 11:06 AM  
granite-girl
Senior Member
 
granite-girl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 204
Default

Everyone's getting pretty technical above, so I won't.... I can't... lol
Anyway- I do know that Delta is now using a ceramic disc cartridge thingamabob & thats' supposed to be better. All I ever hear from plumbers around here is Delta, it's easier to get parts & easier to fix.

I like the look & function of a high arc pulldown sprayer like you are looking at. Delta's all now have a magnetic thingie to hold the sprayer in place after every use. I didn't read that about your Moen faucet.

You also asked about quality of every Moen, delta, ... from what I was told @ 4years ago when I worked for a plumbing supply warehouse (we sold Delta, Kohler...) what you buy at Lowes or Home Depot are not the same quality you can get at a supply house. Who knows now.
There's my thoughts- Good Luck!

__________________

[URL="http://www.supremesurfacecleaner.com/"]http://www.supremesurfacecleaner.com/[/URL]

[URL="http://bathroom.remodelingindianapolis.com/"]http://bathroom.remodelingindianapolis.com/[/URL]

granite-girl is offline  
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-09-2010, 12:07 PM  
Nestor_Kelebay
Emperor Penguin
 
Nestor_Kelebay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Posts: 1,844
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts

Default

Granite Girl:

Quote:
from what I was told @ 4years ago when I worked for a plumbing supply warehouse (we sold Delta, Kohler...) what you buy at Lowes or Home Depot are not the same quality you can get at a supply house.
I have no doubt you were told that, and I expect they even told you to tell customers that. The Moen faucets I buy at my plumbing wholesaler do have different model numbers (for what I can see are identical faucets) than the retail models, and the packaging is very plain (as opposed to the neat-o cardboard box the retail models come in), but the quality of the faucet is the same. It would cost Moen money to keep inventory of a second grade of parts for a hypothetical line of junky faucets. They'd have to keep an inventory and keep track of their stock of junk parts and good quality parts. So, they'd actually have to increase their prices in order to lower their quality. Kinda hard to compete in the world markets by doing that.


Take a look at this Moen web site:

Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) Regarding Moen Faucets

where it says:

Q: "Do all Moen products consist of one standard of quality regardless of whether the distributor is a retail or wholesale supplier?"

A: "Moen's production line does not differentiate between wholesale and retail models. There is only one grade of brass, only one grade of cartridge and only one grade of warranty coverage–the best. While the numbering system for Moen's wholesale distributors and retail distributors may vary and subtle installation and trim differences may exist (these may include, but are not limited to, packaging, threaded or slip-fit style tub spouts and metallic or non-metallic drain assemblies). The quality and limited lifetime warranty against leaks, drips, materials, and workmanship remain the same for all of our products."


Regarding the modifying of the faucet to allow greater flow rates:

Q: "Is there an adjustment that I can make to my faucet to increase the flow of the water?"

A: "In 1992, the federal government passed the Energy Policy Act. This law placed strict regulations on flow rates. All manufacturers must adhere to these standards and no adjustments can be made. In some cases, you may be receiving less than the maximum allowable water flow rate. Normally, this is due to low water pressure, a blockage in the plumbing or in the faucet, or a faucet malfunction.

WaterSense is a program sponsored by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to promote water efficiency (it is similar in nature to the EPA's Energy Star program). A product with the WaterSense label indicates that it meets water efficiency and performance criteria outlined by the EPA to help you reduce water use in your home."

That's the reason for the flow restrictor in the faucet aerator. The faucet doesn't need that flow restrictor in there to operate properly, and if Moen were serious about people not removing that flow restrictor there's a 100 ways they could have modified the brass body of the faucet or the spout to permanently restrict the flow through the faucet so that it couldn't be increased. But, the way they've done it makes it easy to sidestep those EPA restrictions if you want to. You have to take the aerator off the spout to connect a Brita water filter to the faucet. You have to take the aerator off to connect a portable dishwasher to the faucet. If removing the aerator or flow restrictor would harm the faucet, Moen wouldna make it so darn easy to do.
__________________

Last edited by Nestor_Kelebay; 02-09-2010 at 12:58 PM.
Nestor_Kelebay is offline  
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-09-2010, 12:14 PM  
granite-girl
Senior Member
 
granite-girl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 204
Default

you're probably right that does make sense. That's just what I was told about Delta and maybe Kohler. Lowes/HD products had more plastic in them... Who knows the truth anymore.

BTW- I'm here in Southern Indiana- Delta's Corp. Headquarters & manufacturing facility is @ 30 miles away from here, thus... we sold Delta- don't know much about Moen- really.

__________________

[URL="http://www.supremesurfacecleaner.com/"]http://www.supremesurfacecleaner.com/[/URL]

[URL="http://bathroom.remodelingindianapolis.com/"]http://bathroom.remodelingindianapolis.com/[/URL]

granite-girl is offline  
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-09-2010, 01:08 PM  
Nestor_Kelebay
Emperor Penguin
 
Nestor_Kelebay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Posts: 1,844
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts

Default

If you have customers asking you why your faucets cost more, you gotta tell them something.

I guess your boss might have taken a dim view of you're just saying: "Oh, that's an easy question. They cost more because we charge more." and then nod your head and smile.

__________________

Last edited by Nestor_Kelebay; 02-09-2010 at 01:15 PM.
Nestor_Kelebay is offline  
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-09-2010, 01:15 PM  
granite-girl
Senior Member
 
granite-girl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 204
Default

I don't want to go on & on about this, but I keep remembering things- I'm sorta like that. Anyway #1. with the discounts some of those plumbers got- I'm pretty sure we weren't more $$
And #2. I think I remember the plumbers telling me all of that also. They didn't want to work with faucets from the "box stores" of course they marked up what they bought to the customer- so... who knows.



__________________

[URL="http://www.supremesurfacecleaner.com/"]http://www.supremesurfacecleaner.com/[/URL]

[URL="http://bathroom.remodelingindianapolis.com/"]http://bathroom.remodelingindianapolis.com/[/URL]

granite-girl is offline  
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter DIY Home Repair Forum Replies Last Post
any kitchen faucet brands to avoid? daniel2229 Plumbing Forum 19 01-11-2013 08:38 AM
Delta Kitchen Faucet CONNOLE1056 Plumbing Forum 11 10-11-2009 09:15 PM
Kitchen faucet removal plumb1 Plumbing Forum 6 05-07-2009 08:24 AM
Question about a Kitchen Faucet Arunner Plumbing Forum 0 12-16-2008 11:05 AM