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Old 06-08-2009, 03:18 PM  
Nestor_Kelebay
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Jeff & Redwood:

Jeff: I think I found the part you need. If you didn't notice, go back and read my previous posts.

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Some of these other guys I can almost picture the exposed crack as their t-shirt (that doesn't fit and has holes in it) rides up their back.
There is absolutely no need to turn a technical discussion into a name calling contest. It doesn help solve the problem, and it doesn't make you look any better in the eyes of the other people reading these forums. When arguements turn personal on the internet, I can't help but get a lesser opinion of everyone participating cuz they should be able to see with their own eyes that it's not going to help any, so what's the point.

I agree with Redwood that with the amount of work you're already doing, it would make some horse sense to replace that mixture of iron and plastic plumbing materials with a totally PVC drain pipe just to be able to say you did the best job you were capable of. It's important for us DIY'ers to take pride in the work we do. Both MacPlumb and Redwood are professional plumbers, and I'd listen to what they have to say, and try and incorporate their advice into your repair. Maybe if you could post some pictures of the drain you're wanting to connect to, and they were still willing to look at your situation, they may have some good ideas that you would also want to include in your work.



Redwood:
I guess the main point in my last post is that there doesn't seem to be any sense to have a plumbing code that says you can't have a horizontal offset under a shower if you can in other situations like bathtubs, and if you can in other states. The fact that Wisconsin allows up to 15 inches of combined vertical and horizontal offset between the drain and the trap tells me it's not a safety issue because if it was, the various plumbing codes around your country would be unanimous on that one point.

We're telling the poster that what he's doing is wrong because it doesn't comply with his local plumbing code, and yet we can't think of any reason why the plumbing code won't allow a horizontal offset under his shower, and there are plenty of examples we can see where you can have a horizontal offset under a drain.

If you look at the washrooms in hospitals and senior's residences, the sinks will have a horizontal offset of about a foot under them to allow for people in wheel chairs to get close enough to the faucet to reach it comfortably from their wheel chair.

When I was in university, one of my profs gave me some advice that stuck. He told me that if I ever had any questions about anything he taught in his class, to ask about it right away to get things straightened out in my mind. That's because he wasn't going to start explaining it during the final exam.

This offset issue is a perfect example of the kind of question that needs to be cleared up right away because it's just not making any sense NOT to allow a horizontal offset under a shower when there are so many examples of horizontal and vertical offsets under other kinds of drains.


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Old 06-08-2009, 07:10 PM  
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Originally Posted by Nestor_Kelebay View Post
Redwood:
I guess the main point in my last post is that there doesn't seem to be any sense to have a plumbing code that says you can't have a horizontal offset under a shower if you can in other situations like bathtubs, and if you can in other states. The fact that Wisconsin allows up to 15 inches of combined vertical and horizontal offset between the drain and the trap tells me it's not a safety issue because if it was, the various plumbing codes around your country would be unanimous on that one point.
The code is what it is and there is really nothing I personally can do about it. I personally would love to see a National Plumbing Code in our country it sure would be a lot easier than what we have. Whe have a multitude of different codes adopted at State, County, And even Local levels. Even when there is a state code a local ammendment may be adopted. The Electricians heve it made with the National Electrical Code...

The fact that you cite Wisconsin is interesting. They certainly have some very strange things in their code. Did you realize that in Wisconsin a pedestal sink may have a tailpiece extend all the way through the floor to a trap below the floor? Neither here nor there this horizontal offset if it was directly to a trap would create a running trap that is prohibited by almost every code around...

Running traps create a great degree of dificulty for snaking a line. Now in this instance it is now sounding like it doesn't even go directly to a trap. Instead it is going to an indirect drain. This is something that is not allowed for a shower at all and creates even more difficulty in snaking a drain.

The poster needs to comply with the code in his area and it doesn't matter what they do in Wisconsin. It is completely irrelevent to this post. Nestor I'm thinking that there should be one plumbing code for the whole world and your plumbing up in Canada should be done just like the plumbing they have in Mexico... It's the same logic! Personally I could easily pass on having plumbing done in my house like they have in Mexico...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestor_Kelebay View Post
We're telling the poster that what he's doing is wrong because it doesn't comply with his local plumbing code, and yet we can't think of any reason why the plumbing code won't allow a horizontal offset under his shower, and there are plenty of examples we can see where you can have a horizontal offset under a drain.

If you look at the washrooms in hospitals and senior's residences, the sinks will have a horizontal offset of about a foot under them to allow for people in wheel chairs to get close enough to the faucet to reach it comfortably from their wheel chair.
The example you cite is very different and it is allowed by code. The difference is that P-Trap under the sink is removable to facilitate snaking of the line. On an interesting note these ADA Compliant Drains that you cite are not the best working drains I have ever seen but accomodations must be made for handiap accessability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestor_Kelebay View Post
When I was in university, one of my profs gave me some advice that stuck. He told me that if I ever had any questions about anything he taught in his class, to ask about it right away to get things straightened out in my mind. That's because he wasn't going to start explaining it during the final exam.

This offset issue is a perfect example of the kind of question that needs to be cleared up right away because it's just not making any sense NOT to allow a horizontal offset under a shower when there are so many examples of horizontal and vertical offsets under other kinds of drains.
Nestor while that may be good advice on in a Theology Class at the University in the world of plumbing we are limited to doing work that meets the specifications of the Plumbing Code. Everything in the code is there for a reason. In this case the poster is seeking to create an indirect drain in a concealed location that would have no way to clean the drain should it become clogged. The poster could literally step out of his shower and discover that while showering he flooded the basement without even realizing it. The stopped up drain would then be without any access to clear the clog.

Installing a fixture not to code does not increase the value of the home. In fact it detracts from it and becomes a liability where during the sale of the home removal or upgrading to the specifications of the code could be required. In some circumstances this work may even be required after the sale as it was not disclosed as a known problem.

Nestor it needs to be done properly and to code and any advice to the contrary is just plain bad advice. There is no room for energetic debate here. The poster needs to do it right or not do it at all. There is no place in this country where a code does not apply. Some rural areas inspection may be very lax but the requirements of the plumbing code still apply whatever code is adopted for that area.

Nestor in addition to that... look at the picture...
Look Close!
In the picture I see
Elecrical Conduit
Black Iron Pipe
Being used for a drain...
Come on! Where do they allow that?


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Old 06-08-2009, 09:43 PM  
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I live in PA so being up to code isn't a big deal here.



I am not that concerned really.



I want to make this as painless as possible.

Very aware of Pennsylvania and their host of problems when it comes to issues ranging from the bottom to the top. As long as this continues there will be threads like this with no mentality to change above substandard "get by" antics as you've described.




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Originally Posted by jfls45 View Post
Fortunately,

I live in Western PA and they could care less about "code" around here.
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Originally Posted by jfls45 View Post
sound like a bunch of lawyers plumber lawyers.

glad I'm a controls engineer

Given this tidbit of non-useful information pertaining to this subject matter, I would follow the attitude you present so far in the enhanced words I took verbatim from your posts above and realize that the position you hold would not amount to the intellect represented by not one but 3 plumbers representing the value of what a licensed plumber is trained to detect as defective whether in material choice, workmanship, or by basic design.


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Originally Posted by jfls45 View Post
Something tells me I would appreciate your input while your standing in my basement bathroom giving me advice. Some of these other guys I can almost picture the exposed crack as their t-shirt (that doesn't fit and has holes in it) rides up their back. A bunch of them sound like they want to be lawyers when their speaking the code.

This thing worked fine with the old shower, I am simply replacing that old shower and putting in something nicer. I don't really smell anything out of that hole. When you look down inside that hole you see a much larger opening and I think a floor drain also empties into it.

Jeff

It makes no difference whether in person or on a phone, on the internet, you're trying to take out plumbing that was wrong and put it back in wrong. As for representation in a t-shirt I own that along with buttcrack smiles but if you're so inclined to look, then it's at your discretion not to poise and look with wandering eyes.

There are lots of scenarios that "work fine" that don't hold a candle to being installed correctly. If you join a forum to receive such opposition that your method is flawed, there should be a flag of warning and not the flag of your state that you're trying to excuse the talent to do wrong. I'm still waiting for one forum member from PA that would like to do something right without a book/code/provision that thinks maybe doing it right might be something that's done without cohersion.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestor_Kelebay View Post
The fact that Wisconsin allows up to 15 inches of combined vertical and horizontal offset between the drain and the trap tells me it's not a safety issue because if it was, the various plumbing codes around your country would be unanimous on that one point.


If you look at the washrooms in hospitals and senior's residences, the sinks will have a horizontal offset of about a foot under them to allow for people in wheel chairs to get close enough to the faucet to reach it comfortably from their wheel chair.


The code reference to Wisconsin does not apply as would any reference I make to Kentucky, even though I would refer to the practice as in "why it is done" and so forth.

The comparison to hand sinks to showers is not reliable for the reason that the contents of what enters that drain are different.

A shower drain will take on urine, blood, feces, body oils and hair, bodily fluids (if your workin' it in the shower) and whatever else might make it into that orifice.

The hand sink you mentioned would carry the contents of saliva, general handwashing, vomit, blood and other non-human items. I mention the contents because of what the drain comprises of and what it harbors, to which both are bad.

One of those drains is going to sour/become a known area for smells and attract insects. This happens because of the distance from opening of drain to trap. I get calls for drains that smell just within a few inches to the top of the trap seal, let alone 15"+ to the trap. Aside from all of this, a drain is a drain and everything is bad inside of it.


The true issue that has 4 people concerned about this installation is the fact that "normal" people as given the ratio in this thread like to do a task in their home properly and correctly. Not gloat incessantly about how "their state is free and wild" and continues to be spoken through the people who obviously defend it.

To each their own and they all stand alone is a good way to understand that perception.

This thread has either molded a mind to do a task properly or used to defend a task that will be done incorrectly. It is sad that it will be as the effort to correct this issue is relatively simple, something to task that a "engineer" without hours of cross-analyzing should of presented the attitude to fix it correctly, not incorrectly.

But that's just me understanding what my profession has created, knowledge.

There is a difference between good and bad advice. The good thing is we're not responsible for this fellow's mistakes when he makes them.

I've been cheering the steelers for years and every once in a while you gotta understand that the rage doesn't exist in all of us, this thread proves it.
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Old 06-08-2009, 10:48 PM  
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Quote:
Nestor in addition to that... look at the picture...
Look Close!
In the picture I see
Elecrical Conduit
Black Iron Pipe
Being used for a drain...
Come on! Where do they allow that?
OK, now that you mention it, I can't say that I've ever seen galvanized iron piping ever used on a drain pipe until now.

And, here in the Great White North, you can't have a 90 degree elbow on a drain pipe because of the much greater liklihood of either not being able to get around that corner with a snake or getting the snake stuck at the corner. They want you to use two 45's instead.

I see a white PVC shower drain cemented to a grey PVC pipe cemented into an ABS male pipe thread adapter (I wasn't sure you could glue PVC to ABS) threaded into a galvanized elbow. The ABS coming down is a bit confusing to me because it appears that the diameter of the pipe is larger than that of the threaded end piece, and that means the threaded end piece never had a socket to cement the pipe into.

I can't say I can see any electrical conduit, but if you're saying there's electrical conduit there, I'd be guessing it's gotta be that vertical pipe that looks like ABS because I can't explain how that threaded piece at the top got cemented to what looks like ABS pipe.


Dunbar: I can't say that I fully understood that, but what goes down a shower drain is darn near identical to what goes down a bathroom sink drain. In both cases it's mostly soap and/or artificial detergents, hair, dead skin cells, body oils, cosmetics and shaving cream (or shaving soap). There's vastly more of a difference between this and what goes down a toilet or what goes down a kitchen sink drain which will include various kinds of food. In my opinion, there isn't enough of a difference in what goes down a sink and a shower drain to say that's why the code seems to treat the two differently.

But, I agree that regardless of how right or wrong it is, ya gotta abide by your local plumbing code.
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Old 06-09-2009, 05:02 AM  
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replacing the galvinized elbow, the black pvc, all of that isn't an issue, I can go to my local hardware and get the right pipe, what my question is, if I jackhammer up the concrete, what do I do with the cast iron pipe? It seems like alot of unnecessary work. How about finding a "grandfather clause" for me so I can just make this thing work, Yes I will use the right pipe materials, yes I will make it so it doesn't leak and yes I will make sure it slopes down enough so it actually drains. How about I just use some common sense in doing the job and not worry about all the "plumbing code" legal semantics?

How about checking out my pics of all this mess and seeing what I am actually up against and not just judging it by the fittings in the first pictures?

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Old 06-09-2009, 08:29 PM  
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Okay!
Yep!
This is exactly the kind of Pig Slop Plumbing I was talking about!
I'm going to enter these into a Pig Slop Plumbing Contest!
These look like a fer sure winner...
BTW it won't do any good to delete these pics...
I considered them good enough to save...

You're running it over to a floor drain!

The only legal plumbing in the whole picture is the floor drain!





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Old 06-09-2009, 09:12 PM  
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Nestor,
This is what I was talking about...



About the only legal part here that could be used in a drain is the Galvanized Elbow!

jfls45,
Tonite I would suggest taking a well earned break from your project...
Rent a movie and relax...
Have a cold one...

May I suggest renting Dirty Harry... Magnum Force...
Pay close attention to this part...
The one where Harry Callahan tells Lieutenant Briggs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Harry
"A good man always knows his limitations."
You have a few tasks ahead of you...

You need to determine if that floor drain is connected to a sanitary sewer.
You need to break the slab.
Remove the existing floor drain trap.
Extend the drain to a new trap under the shower drain and install a vent through the roof of tie into an existing vent.

If you are not up to the task either abandon the project or, call a plumber to do the work right.
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Old 06-10-2009, 05:29 AM  
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your wrong on the black iron pipe. its actually black pvc pipe

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Old 06-10-2009, 08:01 AM  
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Jeff - Bottom line - If you are busting up concrete anyway just locate a standard trap in the correct position. You can get the parts at any home center. Its easy to do.

While you are at it keep busting up the concrete to get to a sanitary sewer and make your connection there, not to a gray water discharge. The gray water discharge is for things like floor drains and sump pumps, not for showers.

Do it right. Oh, I'm not a plumber but I do have that crack so I feel like I can offer some sane advice. Listen to Redwood and Mac - They know what they are talking about.

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Old 06-10-2009, 09:40 AM  
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your wrong on the black iron pipe. its actually black pvc pipe
Yep I noticed that in the enlargement after I had tagged and posted it...
Wasn't going back to change it...

That aside there are plenty of issues....

If that floor drain is going to a storm sewer and they start seeing soap bubbles....
Trust me you'll hear about it!


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