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Old 03-21-2012, 05:42 AM  
Puddlesx5
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First what parts (guts) did you replace in the tank? Did you run the snake in the toilet or a toilet auger? You can ruin a toilet by running an auger or a snake through them.



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Old 03-21-2012, 08:42 AM  
mintset
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just wondering but is the fill-valve tube still squirting water down the over-flow tube in the tank? sometimes these come out/off and won't fill the bowl back up after a flush correctly until fixed.

and earlier it was suggested to change the flapper. the reason (i think) it was suggested is because they will become water-logged and will cause the flapper to get extra heavy and WILL cause the flapper to fall/seal faster than normal and COULD cause a situation as you've described. just a suggestion.

one more. have you tried flushing the toilet with a large bucket of water instead of the normal lever way? if you try this and you don't have any floaters then this usually means you don't have a clog and the problem lies elsewhere. jmo

steve



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Old 03-23-2012, 06:51 AM  
GeorgeD
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I didn't replace any parts, since I don't see how the internal parts are responsible for the problem. I did run a toilet auger through it without any change in the flush.

The small fill valve hose IS still squirting water into the overflow tube, so the bowl IS at an appropriate level before flushing.

I can observe the flapper opening and closing as it should, so I know it's not causing the problem.

I have used a bucket of water to flush that toilet and that works fine. Of course there is much more force to the water when pouring from a bucket.

The only thing that makes sense to me is a partial blockage with something that can't get by the bend, like a tooth brush. That could slow down the water flow enough that the tank is empty before the water level in the bowl is funneled down to the point where the floaters reach the bottom and a pushed beyond. Since there is no more water to push them from above, the siphon breaks as the water reached the bottom before the floaters disappear.

For the toilet to work properly, it seems to me that I need to either
1) slow down the flow of water from the tank to the bowl or
2) speed up the water flow from the bowl at the start of the flush.

Since there is no way to do 1), I'm thinking the solution is 2). Since this toilet worked fine for 20 years, it seems to me it must be a partial blockage, but I just find that hard to picture. Within a few days, I'll be pulling the toilet, so then I'll know. I'm really hoping I find something because if I don't, I can't see any other answer other than a new toilet.

It's sad when your great hope is to find something in a toilet!

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Old 03-23-2012, 11:44 AM  
mintset
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in your last post you mentioned that the bucket of water gave you a good flush. that screams to me that you might have clogged rim holes and or a clogged siphon hole, if you have one in the bowl.

at any rate when you flushed with the bucket that is usually the same as, or close to, the force of water that is supposed to be delivered from the tank. it helps the siphon action needed.

slowing the water down from the tank is NOT the route to go.

just for giggles, why not use a small piece of a metal hanger or stiff wire and clean out the rim holes and the siphon hole, if your commode has one. these must be wide open to permit the full water pressure delivery needed for the flush to occur correctly. if the holes (even if they're not) are closed try pouring a gallon of vinegar down the over-flow tube located in the tank. this will help dissolve the mineral build-up. i would not flush for a few hours or over-night if possible. see what happens.

steve

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Old 03-23-2012, 04:02 PM  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mintset View Post
in your last post you mentioned that the bucket of water gave you a good flush. that screams to me that you might have clogged rim holes and or a clogged siphon hole, if you have one in the bowl.
My next thought exactly.
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Old 03-24-2012, 06:42 AM  
GeorgeD
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I had previously looked at both those things. I thought I was going to have the answer with a clogged siphon hole, but I checked during a test flush and there was a strong stream of water from it. And I can see lots of water coming from all the rim holes.

As I said early on, there IS a strong flush. That's what's so frustrating about this.

When you flush, you see a buildup of water in the bowl at first, as the tank is dumping, and then a pretty strong funnel forms as the bowl empties with significant force. If you watch the toilet flush with nothing in the bowl, you'll swear there's nothing wrong with the toilet. It flushes the same way with a bucket of water.

The problem is that small floaters go whipping around the top of the funnel and invariably one or two will remain as the siphon breaks. In fact, they sometimes disappear at the last second, and then reappear as the siphon breaks. A second flush can often give the same result.

The only other thing I can say is that the fill valve on this toilet is very slow. It takes about 4 minutes for the tank to fill. We're on a well, but I've verified that there's plenty of water pressure and volume available, so it's the fill valve that makes it slow.

So the water is not coming in very fast while the flapper is open. However, that really doesn't seem to be a factor in the flush, since the flapper closes when the tank is empty. There's plenty of water -- just none at the end of the flush when the bowl is finally getting empty. There is no water for extra push at the end. Looking at other working toilets, I see that there is still water coming from the tank when the bowl is bottoming out. With this toilet, that isn't the case.

In fact, I just timed the flush. The flapper closed at 10 seconds, and the siphon broke at 11 seconds. I suppose it's possible that a fast fill valve would add enough water at the end to make a difference, but I doubt it, and I hate spending $25 on a new one, only to need a new toilet anyway.

Using that toilet is always an adventure...

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Old 03-24-2012, 08:51 AM  
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It should take less than 30 minutes to lift a toilet, tip it for a look and put it back. Just take it off and look/probe the hole from the bottom. You could have done it in the time you spend writing on this post.

Turn off the water.
Flush toilet and hold the handle to drain the tank.
Use a plunger to push the water out of the bowl.
Remove water line connection.
Remove tank bolts.
Lift and look.

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Old 03-24-2012, 08:58 AM  
oldognewtrick
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Joe, it's the suspense. The murder mystery wouldn't be worth reading if they told you that the Colonel killed Mrs. Wiggins in the library with a lead pipe in the first chapter. Wait that was a board game I think....

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Old 03-24-2012, 11:58 AM  
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OK GeorgeD. here's another thought for you to try, IF you've ever used (or a family member has used) the tank tablets, then this is a possible problem and should be checked as a part of your troubles.

it is possible to have this happen. the tablet COULD find its way into the flush hole under the flapper.

turn the water off to the toilet, flush, then lift the flapper and feel down the hole for remnants of a partially dissolved tank tablet inside. this can and does happen periodically. and if it should happen then of course this would keep the water from falling at a fast enough pace as is needed for a good flush. clean it out and you should be good to go.

if no success after trying this, then pull the commode and inspect everything you can. GOOD LUCK!

steve



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