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Old 10-21-2012, 10:55 AM  
mudmixer
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You are right about the type of containers that are usually available, but some are saved for a empty return trip on the jumbo ships.

Good, heavy duty containers are rarely found because they have value for many years (or decades) because they can do the job as long as they are functional.

We shipped 40,000 lb pieces of equipment plus spares (all wrapped) in containers. Some were open (sturdier walls because no roof) and the closed ones we added medical supplies and brooms as gifts to fill the "free" empty space. Our employees welded plates on the side to sign and date to keep track of whether they ever came back. It was surprising how many came back after 10 or 20 years.

The big problem with disposable containers is that they have the strength on the corners fpr handing and loading and bearing anything of the top of the sides is very questionable. The bottoms are very well built because heavy loads can be placed anywhere.

They can work buried since the projectile impact is not a factor, but the top is usually vulnerable from a life safety situation. Unfortunately, the doors open outward, so you need to make sure the debris does not block the exit.

Dick



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Old 10-21-2012, 12:49 PM  
notmrjohn
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"the doors open outward" Don't use those doors, weld um shut, install proper hatches. Many containers are actually crushed, sent back as scrap. A friend of mine actually lived in a burried one for a couple of years.

If buried, welded door adds some strength but adding some "studs" and "rafters" inside is good idea. Also a couple of ventilaters, turbines for example as far apart as possible, along with couple of inlets. They need strong dampers in case twister is close, it can either suck or blow air into box. twister that lifted me and van really made ears pop several times rapid succession, pulled window out of rear side.



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Old 10-21-2012, 03:51 PM  
Wuzzat?
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That is a very large hailstone.

"March 29, 1990: Last known hail fatality in the United States. Juan Oseguera, a nineteen year old man who died from head injuries after being hit by a softball sized hailstone in Lake Worth, Texas.[6]"

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Old 10-21-2012, 04:52 PM  
mudmixer
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Waazat - What does that have to do with a storm shelter? Any fool can wander around in field when there is a storm warning. A storm shelter does nothing in that case, it points out the possibility of very severe hail, but tornadoes do not necessarily keep up with tornado movement are horizontal movement.

A big chuck of ice is nothing compared to a construction material moving at 150-250 mph than can go through steel plate, let alone a mere aluminum hard hat.

Dick

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Old 10-22-2012, 10:31 AM  
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mud, a big chunk of ice moving at 250 miles an hour is nothing to be laughed at.

Mr Oseguera was not some fool wandering around in a field. He was killed by the same storm that spawned the tornado that tore thru downtown Ft Worth. He was a 19 year old, attending college and working several jobs to support his parents and siblings in Honduras, he had just purchased a brand new truck that he was planning on driving back home for them to use in starting a produce delivery business.
The storm was a typical one for here, springing up quickly with little warning, when he heard warnings of storm brewing 15 miles away, he moved the truck to a more sheltered area behind pizza parlor where he was working. He was 10 feet from door back into building when hail storm literally erupted. News reports all made a point of saying truck did not have a dent on it.

The truck tossing tornado spawned a hail storm traveling roughly paralell but 5 miles away. TV was so intent on showing "live footage" of tornado they ignored other factors. People in hail area assumed warning sirens, if they could here them over rain and wind, were about tornado. Huge hail stones punctured roofs wound up inside homes. Softball sized, some with great long spikes like medieval mace.

So I'd say death by hail has something to do with storm shelters.

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Old 10-22-2012, 10:57 AM  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mudmixer View Post
Waazat - What does that have to do with a storm shelter?
Chain of associations:
tornado (literal) > deadly storm (more abstract) > some storms cause large hail (literal but general) > some unlucky persons may be killed (abstract).
During my time in San Antonio as a guest of the USAF we suddenly had hail the size of golfballs. The newer cars were damaged. For a NJ native, this weather was flat out nuts.

Other thoughts: who's to blame? > Act of God, it seems the victim took reasonable precautions.

What's reasonable?
People get hit by objects from space but nobody goes around underground in anticipation of this event.
With 1000 people/yr in the US dying from smoking, smoking is "unreasonable".

With the shelter doors, I guess having multiple exits in a star pattern will better your odds of being able to leave. Having tools or signaling devices in the shelter may also help.
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:41 AM  
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Hail is meaningless for a typical "safe cell" built according to the FEMA developed methods. Anything else is a compromise with less protection interspersed with personal guesses as to the value.

More doors are a meaningless additional expense and increase the potential for more problems and damage.

Big hail chunks do not fall at a real high velocity and the load is spread out over a large area and never cause any harm to a person.

If you have ever seen the effects during a Texas Tech test for projectile impact you will be impressed with what works and what does not work. Everyone is free to try a DIY plan and method and re-invent the wheel. The result is a compromise in life safety.

Chunks of hail are always great items (they do not melt quickly) to show on TV shows, but they can easily be avoided by using common sense at no financial cost.

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Old 10-22-2012, 12:21 PM  
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Dick: Are you kidding? Sun City directs people to the hall way in the center of the house or any room with out windows.
http://www.w1wab.com/SafeRoom.htm

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Old 10-22-2012, 12:55 PM  
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"signaling devices" That's one of basic supplies, telescoping pole with red flag that can extended up a vent pipe. Days worth of water, jar of peanut butter, tinned crackers.

National Museum of Nuclear Science & History in Albuquerque has large exhibit of Cold War Bomb Shelters. On display are several cans of "Universal Food", up to five gallon size. Glancing at ingredients it is horrible concotion of all kinds of stuff.

Of course you can go overboard in adding exits, still two exits as far apart as practical is recommended. With culvert fraidy hole, cost of extending 30- 36" exit tunnel is negligible.

Terminal velocity of 3" hailstone can be 100mph +, weight depends on its density but can be over a pound. Speed of stone depends on size shape, up and down drafts, horizontal winds, twisters can throw them horizontally.

"never cause any harm to a person" If he could, Mr Oseguera would beg to differ.

"Tech tests" I went to University couple of hundred miles north of Tech. I had job in Kilgore Research center, in conjunction with Texas A&M we were firing 2X4's out of air cannons before state/national politics took our grants away and gave them to Tech. A few of my co-student/workers and researchers we worked for moved to Tech. Not only have I seen results of tests I have been in lab while some were being done.

Hailstones "can easily be avoided by using common sense." I see you do "loss verification" but have you ever been in a real West Texas hail storm? How do you avoid something you don't know is coming? As Custer once apocryphally said, there is no real danger in Indian attack, you can see arrows coming and avoid them. Have you assessed damage from a storm such as recent hail storm we had? Several people were injured. Broken ribs, shoulders, concussions. Have you ever actually seen large hailstones?

While maybe not directly related to your expensive in house "safe room," hail storm is not to be taken lightly.

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Old 10-22-2012, 01:58 PM  
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Are we getting anywhere with this except to say what
doesn't
probably won't
will never
may possibly
work?

There must be something between standing in an open field and being in a missile silo with the hatch closed.

What is going on here?

And. . .more important. . .why?



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