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Old 02-12-2010, 09:55 AM  
funetical
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I'm here reading from time to time. Lucky for me I haven't had any home issues recently. You guys seem to be staying busy.



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Old 02-12-2010, 09:58 AM  
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I see you in the bottom of the main page. Welcome Back!



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Old 02-12-2010, 04:11 PM  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funetical View Post
The American Mentality is
. . .fear.

If the defense budget for the whole world is $X, we spend $X/2 on our defense even though we are only 5% of the world's population.

Fear, Uncertainty & Doubt sells a lot of stuff to the public, according to
Amazon.com: unSpun: Finding Facts in a World of Disinformation (9781400065660): Brooks Jackson, Kathleen Hall Jamieson: Books

We also consume 25% of the world's resources, which would be OK if we did 25% of the world's work.
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Old 02-12-2010, 06:44 PM  
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Funetical:

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By exercising both we are demonstrating force, and through force you can make change. This is the nature of the universe. Without force nothing changes. With the application of force we have movement, creation, destruction, and rebirth.
Not sure this guy would agree that you need the force of arms to bring about change...


I agree to disagree. I like it on this side of the border where only the police and criminals have guns, and you like it on that side where the fear is that without legal gun ownership, only the police and the criminals would have guns. I still think that it's a problem with no good solution. If there was a good solution, it woulda been solved by now.
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Old 02-12-2010, 07:05 PM  
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NESTOR, you are right. there are no easy answers to the created problems we face.

But remember, when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

Has crime diminished since hand guns were removed?

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Old 02-12-2010, 07:11 PM  
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Game Theory says carry a gun because it is a dominant strategy

"In game theory, dominance (also called strategic dominance) occurs when one strategy is better than another strategy for one player, no matter how that player's opponents may play."

wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominance_(game_theory)

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Old 02-12-2010, 11:42 PM  
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I understand the part about protecting the liberty and freedom of your country.

And I understand that the right to bear arms is carved in stone in your constitution.

But, as long as guns are legal in your country, you're going to keep hearing stories like the one that started this thread:


That tow truck driver in Houston was merely trying to do his job by towing an illegally parked truck. The owner of the truck pulled out a gun and started shooting at the tow truck driver. The guy wasn't protecting the liberty and freedom of Americans. He was trying to kill a guy who was only doing his job.

Anyhow, I think we all agree that guns in the hands of RESPONSIBLE people is not an issue. It's guns in the hands of the people in this story, that would start shooting and potentially kill someone only to save the cost of a towing fee, that's the problem.

If any off-duty cop pulled out his gun and started shooting at a tow truck driver that was towing his car, he'd be fired and never work as a cop again. If people with guns can't learn to exercise the self discipline required to use them RESPONSIBLY, then they shouldn't be allowed to have them. The greater the power you put in a person's hands, the greater the onus on their part to use that power responsibly. And, it just seems to me that's not happening. This guy is using that power to shoot and potentially kill someone to save himself a $200 towing fee ?!?!?.

Who here would want to see their son, brother, father or husband shot and killed over $200.

I don't have a problem with RESPONSIBLE gun ownership. I have a problem with an irresponsible person pulling out his gun and shooting because he's not thinking of the potential consequences of what he's doing. That is irresponsible gun ownership.

I think it's fine for people to have a gun to protect their own house from burglars, or for store owners to have guns to protect themselves from robbery and things like that. Those people would only use their guns if they really had to. They wouldn't start chasing away tow truck drivers with them.
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Old 02-13-2010, 06:24 AM  
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I'm going to tackle this one argument at a time. Remember Nestor I'm not arguing with you just your argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestor_Kelebay View Post
I understand the part about protecting the liberty and freedom of your country.
And I understand that the right to bear arms is carved in stone in your constitution.
But, as long as guns are legal in your country, you're going to keep hearing stories like the one that started this thread:
Lethal Weapon: Houston tow truck driver shot at during tow, escapes with his life on Vimeo
We are always going to here these stories. The offender had a gun. The offender always has guns. They are easier to procure illegally. People aren't bad because of guns people are bad , people are bad on there own. If not there would be no need for law.
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That tow truck driver in Houston was merely trying to do his job by towing an illegally parked truck. The owner of the truck pulled out a gun and started shooting at the tow truck driver. The guy wasn't protecting the liberty and freedom of Americans. He was trying to kill a guy who was only doing his job.
As are most people who are involved in violent encounters. The gun isn't the issue. The person was the issue. Address the issue.
Quote:
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Anyhow, I think we all agree that guns in the hands of RESPONSIBLE people is not an issue. It's guns in the hands of the people in this story, that would start shooting and potentially kill someone only to save the cost of a towing fee, that's the problem.
Saying it boils down to a fee is an over simplification. The guy was drunk and felt himself to be defending his property. It was ill founded.
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If any off-duty cop pulled out his gun and started shooting at a tow truck driver that was towing his car, he'd be fired and never work as a cop again.
In Texas he would have been allowed to keep his job and continue working. Bull**** hypocrisy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestor_Kelebay View Post
If people with guns can't learn to exercise the self discipline required to use them RESPONSIBLY, then they shouldn't be allowed to have them. The greater the power you put in a person's hands, the greater the onus on their part to use that power responsibly. And, it just seems to me that's not happening. This guy is using that power to shoot and potentially kill someone to save himself a $200 towing fee ?!?!?.
You don't learn to do some thing by taking it away and you don't learn to exercise rights by not having any.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestor_Kelebay View Post
Who here would want to see their son, brother, father or husband shot and killed over $200.
I grew up in law enforcement. My father shot and was shot at many times. He was trained for it and prepared. The only way I knew this as a child was if he came home closed the door and cried to my Mom. My Father is a hard ***. Killing any one isn't easy. Nor is the thought that some one wants to kill you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestor_Kelebay View Post
I don't have a problem with RESPONSIBLE gun ownership. I have a problem with an irresponsible person pulling out his gun and shooting because he's not thinking of the potential consequences of what he's doing. That is irresponsible gun ownership.
By the same logic Alcohol, Candy, Pornography, Food and everything else should be banned or regulated. We can't control the actions of the populace we can only educate them to the responsible use of the things in question. Before they argue these things don't kill people. Yes they do. And they ruin lives.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestor_Kelebay View Post
I think it's fine for people to have a gun to protect their own house from burglars, or for store owners to have guns to protect themselves from robbery and things like that. Those people would only use their guns if they really had to. They wouldn't start chasing away tow truck drivers with them.
Because that's illegal and immoral. How would it have ended if the tow truck driver was armed. What if he couldn't have got away? One more person that can't go home ever again. The argument is not in gun control. The argument is in assholes.

As for Gandhi.
Our attempts to get rid if the British through peaceful resolution didn't work. We tried. We petitioned. We demanded representation. The overwhelmingly oppressive force disagreed. The only way to subjugate us was through violence and because we violently resisted and won the history of the world has changed. That's not America-centric view of things. That's truth. We showed the path to not be oppressed by people who claimed to be our betters. We tried protesting (The Boston Tea Party, amongst others) and it didn't work. The world wants to look down on us because we live little freer. The reality of it though is that freedom and that initiative rest in the heart of violence. It's in understanding violence and using it responsibly that you get positive means. What Gandhi did was amazing, but all thing considered it wad the right time and place. The English occupation of India was Scrutinized by their trading partners the world over. Gandhi didn't accomplish his goals alone. He had the whole world looking at him. Have you ever seen some one starving? It's violent. Just because you don't hurt those who choose to hurt you doesn't mean your not violent. In this case it means you hurt yourself.
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Old 02-13-2010, 11:53 AM  
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I am on dial-up so I can't watch the video because it just takes too long to load via a 56K modem. But, I didn't see anywhere in the text that the owner of the truck being towed was drinking. It says that someone threw a bottle at the truck and the owner of the truck was verbally abusive, but it doesn't say that the owner had been drinking.

I think the bottom line here is that irresponsible gun ownership is a greater menace to the REAL freedom and liberty of Americans than the risk of being controlled by a tyrannical government. People in your country also hear the stories about 16 year-olds carrying guns, and are afraid to go out in the evening. People in certain neighborhoodd in your cities hear gunfire and even see murders being committed but won't report it to the police because they are afraid of retribution. THAT, in my view, restricts the REAL EVERYDAY freedom and liberty of everyday Americans far more than any tyrannical government your guns are supposed to protect your society from.

Maybe it's because I live in Canada and the only news we hear out of the US is generally about tragedies and bad news. It's the airplane syndrome. If you watch enough TV, you'd come to the conclusion that every airplane flight ends in a crash or close call. The uneventful flights where the plane lands safely go unreported.

No, I don't take arguments personally. I don't offend anyone nor do I get offended. We have different points of view because we're seeing the same situation from different perspectives. I just see much greater danger in that situation because those glimpses I've gotten have always resulted in a death or close call. (as in the case of the Houston tow truck driver)

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Old 02-17-2010, 09:20 AM  
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America is pretty awesome but our media in no way represents us any longer. It has bridged into a new dimension as entertainment. It denies the core of America, which is genuinely good ,hard working people. We didn't get to our place in the world being a blood thirsty global menace.



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