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Old 03-29-2007, 08:13 PM  
AndyD5
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they are correct about the bonding issue too the gray plastic should not ever have been used on a metal panel nor should that fitting between the boxes been done that way either the plastic stuff is for low voltage and outside underground light fixtures and things of that nature



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Old 03-29-2007, 08:39 PM  
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a branch circuit just needs grounding period it doesn't have to be grounded back to the main panel it can be grounded to a nearby fully functional coper water line anywhere in the house my branch box is ground clamped to the supply line to the toilet nearby. I don't know the codes there but here the water supply line is the ground in every house.

the gray plastic should not ever have been used on a metal panel nor should that fitting between the boxes been done that way either the plastic stuff is for low voltage and outside underground light fixtures and things of that nature

Where in the NEC does code allow grounding to any nearby water pipe?

What if the pipe is plastic between the grounding point and the outside?

NEC allows PVC pipe on service entry, for conduit in most damp locations and CERTAINLY in underground applications from the service entry to the run out to the garage.. 75% of newer homes have PVC from the meter base to the panel. Code requires rigid conduit from the meter base up in overhead service feeds.


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Old 03-29-2007, 08:45 PM  
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that is why I said copper water line of course things are different different places here in AZ your meter head is usually mounted right into the panel box only older houses are seperated with the overhead most of AZ is underground personally I check all grounds before assuming they are ground. in all 28 years living in Arizona I have not seen a single house that was grounded in any way other than a clamp behind the hose bib closest to the main shut off valve from the house side of the water meter.

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Old 03-30-2007, 07:19 PM  
petey_racer
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m that clamp ontop the existing or just screw right into the frame of the panel a branch circuit just needs grounding period it doesn't have to be grounded back to the main panel it can be grounded to a nearby fully functional coper water line anywhere in the house
THIS IS INCORRECT AND UNSAFE ADVICE! Please DO NOT follow it.

You are NOT permitted to simply ground a circuit to a near by water pipe.
You can use a water pipe in VERY limited circumstances. And "anywhere" does NOT fit this description.

Also, an ad on ground bar should NOT be used for neutrals. The ground bar simply screwed to the back of a panel is NOT designed to carry current. Neutrals always carry current. Grounds only carry current under fault conditions.

If you ad on a bar move grounds to that bar and use the existing neutral bar for any neutrals.
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Old 03-30-2007, 07:21 PM  
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in all 28 years living in Arizona I have not seen a single house that was grounded in any way other than a clamp behind the hose bib closest to the main shut off valve from the house side of the water meter.
OK. You are likely looking at the water bond. NOT a service ground.
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Old 03-31-2007, 06:24 AM  
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Default Hmmm...

Well Petey....(deep subject) you opened the box...

What is the difference between grounding and bonding for those that think it is the same wiring....?

Sorry to put you on the spot but.... you are the code guru.....

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Old 03-31-2007, 06:58 AM  
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Well,I really did not want to get involved in this thread seeing as it had been covered nicely. I just really felt the need to address some of the erroneous and dangerous advice give recently.

Service grounding (a word I hate by the way) using grounding electrodes DOES NOT "ground" anything. Many folks think this has something to do with the safety ground and the third prong in receptacles. It does not.
Grounding & bonding are VERY complex issues and there are reams of information written. For the real purpose of the grounding electrode system in your house you can go to a site such as Mike Holt's or ECN and read some newsletters. I'll link one below.

For the purposes of that particular statement; service grounding by a METALLIC water pipe entering the structure, for new work and renovation/replacement. These rules are not retroactive.
If there is a metallic water pipe entering the building, AND it is in contact with earth at least 10' out, this pipe MUST be used as the primary grounding electrode. You must attach a GEC (grounding electrode conductor) within 5' of where the pipe enters the structure. Also, any removable meters, plastic filters, etc, that can/do breaker the electrical continuity of the piping system, must be jumpered around.
This GEC must be sized according to NEC Table 250.66
Even with this electrode, a supplemental electrode(s) must be installed. Typically this is a ground rod, or two, driven outside.
In the above case, no additional water bond is required. The GEC serves both purposes.


If the water pipe entering the house is non-metallic, then we still must BOND the metallic water piping system. The bond wire is also sized by Table 250.66.
See NEC 250.104(A)(1)


http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_grounding_vs_bonding_2/index.html

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Old 04-02-2007, 08:29 AM  
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Thanks for the info, petey_racer.

I wasn't planning to move neutrals to the new bar...just grounds. In fact, I'm going to be doing this tonight, so I'll let you know how this went.

Thanks.



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