HELP! - new wiring for garage

So my goal right now is to understand just how dangerous this house is - i.e if the landlord does not want to fix it do we want to move out? Our rental market is stupid where we live - over 100 applications on every opening.

What is the risk with these two funky panels?

As I understand it one big risk is the high current through those large breakers. I dont know what gauge wire is connected to the 30 and 20 amp breakers - but I suspect it is old KT - because that is what is exposed in the attic. Is there another way to tell? Is the risk just fire or is there an elevated risk of electrocution somehow? The last family supposedly lived here for 30 years with no accidents.

The 30amp breaker is for the kitchen outlets which includes a gas heater, fridge, etc. Is that still overkill? Is it still dangerous regardless of what the supply wire is?

The KT in the attic is wired with the supply and return separate. I found a new charming detail up there - curious what y'all opinion is. Looks like they spliced into the old knob-and-tube. I know nothing of these things - but it looks like the splice connects the hot to the neutral and vice-versa. From the box the three lines go to motion sensor lights.





Again - I appreciate all the wisdom you guys offer.

Kabris - if that was the case - would either of those 40amp breakers kill the house? Right now only the one marked "main" will.

There is so mutch wrong here, no one should tell you what can be done. Actually we havn't seen anything that is right here.

when talking has done no good




do not know what state you live in...

google ...renters rights in ,,,,your state// landlord/tenant law

look up the procedure to compel the landlord to fix the property

also look up, how to make he landlord pay for your accommodations while work is in process
you will still owe your rent, but he will have to pick up any extra expense for your lodging

be advised..after work is complete..when your lease is up..your rent will go up and/or he is going to kick you ouy

again,,look at the tenant/landlord laws for your town

my advice, communicate by registered letter only, sue him to fix the house

medwar said:

Kabris - if that was the case - would either of those 40amp breakers kill the house? Right now only the one marked "main" will.

Click to expand...

If your panel is only being fed with 120 volts, then the breaker marked Main will kill all the branch circuits in that panel, but the line coming into that breaker will still be live. Just everything going out will be dead. My guess is that the other 40 amp breaker was left there as a spare on purpose in case there is ever a need for a 240 volt circuit in your place. If there is ever 240 volts, the 2-pole breaker has to be permanently joined as per Code.

As far as the 30 amp for kitchen, the NEC requires at least 10 gauge copper wire for the entirety of that branch circuit. Even if 10 gauge is coming out of that breaker, who's to say that after the first splice, only 12 gauge or 14 gauge is coming off of that? Then you could potentially have 30 amps passing through a dangerously undersized wire. And besides, your standard 120 volt residential outlet is only rated for 15-20 amps. So 30 amps flowing through those devices could lead to some potentially dangerous issues.

And from your most recent pictures, it looks as if there was a lot of splicing to knob and tube there. All of that has no ground. To Code, when a ground is not present, a GFCI device is required at the very least.

Back in the day of knob and tube wiring that is the way splices were made. With the common and hot leg separated by a foot or more of air they felt safe in doing that. The splices were a fancy deal with so many tight wraps of the wire and then soldered and then two different types of tape one of them was a butyl rubber and a friction tape. I have seen Knob and tube left in place at times but never extended with new wire branching out from it. In your case it isn’t hidden in a finished wall or someplace hard to get at so why wouldn’t they have replaced it. All these additions are clearly done by a handyman type guy or the landlord and done as quick and cheap as possible.

I agree with Kabris the single worst thing you have is the 30a breaker feeding the kitchen and secondly lack of any kind of GFCI or safety ground.

I don’t think you should burn any bridges and be out looking for another place to live until you have to, but also you need to be able to sleep at night without worry of harm coming to you or your family. With this setup I wouldn’t want any breaker higher than 15a in that panel.

Keep in mind all of this is not right but some things will make it safer if you can’t get the landlord to go along with bringing it to code.

I would start with changing out the 20a and 30a breakers with 15a breakers if you start popping them right and left it will be clear you need more runs and divide up the circuits. At 15a I would personally sleep a lot better. If you find that 15a breakers work ok and don’t trip then I would change out the outlets with GFCI’s or at least the ones that need to be GFCI by code and are in high risk areas like kitchen and bath. The other thing I would do is if you have kids around or anyone that might access that crawl space is secure access to that area.

Being as this is a rental and you have limited skills in this area please proceed with caution and or get some help from someone better versed in this. Ideally you go talk to the landlord and he says you are right I’m going to rewire the whole place. But somehow I don’t see that happening and you have to weigh what you are getting for your money and how much you want to make it safe for yourself and family. If there comes a time when you plan on moving the very last thing I would do is turn him in because the next tenant might not be as wise as you and seek help with what to do.

Thanks y'all. I will let you know how it goes....

Bud is right on target as usual. There are a few low cost and relatively easy things to do to make it safer (safer and safe are two different things). But right at the top of the list is look for a new place. if the landlord is taking chances with electricity, everything else is suspect to cheap shortcuts.
As I understand it, there are GFCI breakers. One of the pros can tell you if the main breaker can be changed for a GFCI, and if that would cover the whole house. If not, replacing outlets with GFCI outlets, as bud said, is something you can do yourself. Be prepared to cover the cost yourself, then present a bill for your expenses to the landlord. Explain that you know these safety upgrades were necessary. If he's smart he'll reimburse you and it will start a dialogue on the rest of the house.

A GFCI isn’t going to help with the house burning down if you are pulling 30a thru a wire that’s only good for 20a. The GFCI won’t know there is any problem until some current goes to ground. They are just a good idea anyplace or all places for that matter where there is a chance of someone getting shocked. Places where there could be good paths to ground are most important like sinks and pools and water.

The circuit like a chain will fail at its weakest link. In the case of fuses and breakers you want that device to be the weakest link. If a wire can handle 20a max then the fuse should be lower than that like 15a.

I wasn't suggesting the GFCI part of the problem was the only fix, but I saw it as an easy way into the problems - and an easy way into the dialogue with the landlord. Thanks for making that clear.

Bud is right about trying to swap out the breakers (most important is kitchen) and see if they hold. Single pole 15 and 20 amp breakers cost $5 or so at a Home Depot or Lowes, but you have to make sure you have a type that's compatible with your panel. If you don't feel comfortable attempting this yourself, then don't do it. Get in contact with an electrician or your landlord.

If they don't hold then it is apparent you need new circuits run and further evidence your landlord was cutting corners. The absolute worst thing you can do is simply put in a larger breaker when a breaker keeps tripping. The breaker is there solely to protect the wire, and if it's tripping, then it is doing its job period.

You're going to have to investigate to see what size wire is feeding things, but since you think you have a bit of knob and tube I would recommend to either demo the knob and tube altogether and replace with new romex with ground, or put it in a 15 amp breaker and GFCI protect it. That wire is very old/brittle and has lasted the test of time thus far, so the last thing you want to do is overload it.

I hate knob and tube, and always recommend to demo it if possible. It is very difficult to troubleshoot and work with. The electricians who installed it nearly 100 years ago had a much different mindset than today's electricians. Today's electricians generally start all of their branch circuits in the basement Main and "branch" them out to the rest of the house from there (a centralized hub at the Main). The electricians back then would have a very small Main in the basement, send their knob and tube trunk to the attic, and then branch out to the rest of the house from there. But back then the need for electricity was for lights and just a couple 110 volt outlets. Much different today.

true story, for what its worth.

We had A Laborer working for us, Darnell, he had about 6 kids and lived in a shack,
the Government ,thru some program, gave him a mobile home. they delivered it.
but it ws his responsibility to level, hook up utilities

he did not level it, and hooked up the electric using scrap wire from the job.

the trailer burned down, due to faulty wireing.

a government man showed, assured him they would replace everything that was lost.

OH, By the way, government said..we understand all your records were burned in the fire
understandable
just tell us the name of the licensed electrician who wired the trailer???

Darnell said, "I wired it myself"

Government man said "Good bye Mr Darnell"