How to get this ready for cabinets and appliances?

Advertise with us
SpartanEpoxies
Shop deals on ebay
House Repair Talk

Help Support House Repair Talk:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Snoonyb said:
You should be able to pull the circuits necessary through 1/2."

Keep in mind, you should have a min. of 2 appliance circuits, and there for counter appliances.

Unless it is a separate circuit, the 2nd counter recep. on the wall can be GFCI protected by the existing GFCI.



Instead of the inconvenience of a switch inside of a cabinet, there are countertop push button disposal switches.

The DW should have its own circuit.



You'll have a countertop work area either too one/or both sides of the sink so a cabinet mounted GFCI, on one/or both ends.

The make them tamperproof.



It appears that that is a drain line for a sink and need to be vented.

Any fitting with a compression cap needs to be accessible.

They should be glued fittings.
Click to expand...

Both the GCFI's will be on the same circuit as the microwave. The microwave will be plugged in to an outlet in a cabinet. Is this okay?

One problem I see is that that same circuit is all I have available to bring power to the center island.

1116172141.jpg
 
farmerjohn1324 said:
Both the GCFI's will be on the same circuit as the microwave. The microwave will be plugged in to an outlet in a cabinet. Is this okay?
Click to expand...

If the MW is installed in a cabinet, whether you have a trim kit to finish the installation, or not, it requires a separate circuit.

farmerjohn1324 said:
One problem I see is that that same circuit is all I have available to bring power to the center island.
Click to expand...

That's unfortunate, besides not meeting requirements.
 
Snoonyb said:
If the MW is installed in a cabinet, whether you have a trim kit to finish the installation, or not, it requires a separate circuit.



That's unfortunate, besides not meeting requirements.
Click to expand...

Well it's not IN a cabinet, it's screwed in to the bottom of a trim piece with an outlet probably in the cabinet to the right.

So I need 3 circuits total here? I still don't get why the microwave has to be on it's own.

Tomorrow, I will have to map all the circuits in the house.

What is the guideline? Is it a certain number of amps or watts maximum per circuit?

My MW at home is on a shared circuit.

Is there any danger in just switching the breakers out for ones that can handle a higher capacity?
 
Last edited:
farmerjohn1324 said:
Well it's not IN a cabinet, it's screwed in to the bottom of a trim piece with an outlet probably in the cabinet to the right.
Click to expand...

This is becoming so convoluted, it's almost not understandable.

farmerjohn1324 said:
So I need 3 circuits total here? I still don't get why the microwave has to be on it's own.
Click to expand...

So far.

farmerjohn1324 said:
What is the guideline? Is it a certain number of amps or watts maximum per circuit?
Click to expand...

20amp circuits.

farmerjohn1324 said:
My MW at home is on a shared circuit.
Click to expand...

As discussed, if it is free standing on a counter.

farmerjohn1324 said:
Is there any danger in just switching the breakers out for ones that can handle a higher capacity?
Click to expand...

As has been discussed in your previous threads, 12ga. wire for 20amp breakers, 14ga wire for 15amp breakers.

You really need to pull permits for these ventures.
 
I'm not sure about your jurisdiction, but in some cases having a power outlet in a kitchen island is REQUIRED by building code. I think 20amp GFCI is recommended. and I think garbage disposal should be separate from dishwasher, but I'm not an electrical expert. I'm still trying to learn the basics right now.

The reason for the microwave having it's own circuit is that it can draw a lot of power. If you have it sharing circuits with other appliances it can cause a brownout or shut off (it can trip the breaker). Before we had the wiring re-done mine used to cause the lights to dim when it was used.

A note on island plumbing, make sure that a studor vent (AAV) is allowed in your jurisdiction, is accessible, and that somewhere on that drain pipe there is an actual full vent to the outside. It only handles the negative pressure, not the positive, and the diaphragm inside can fail within 2 years and require it to be replaced. Also, you can do a loop vent meant for islands.
tumblr_ntq8dyJbvr1uwberno1_540.jpg

tumblr_ntq8dyJbvr1uwberno2_400.jpg


Although, from my understanding this still has the same trap arm length restrictions as regular trap arms (and that limit depends on whether you are under IPC or UPC). IPC allows for longer runs-- I think you can have a 5' trap arm before it needs to vent.
 
zannej said:
I'm not sure about your jurisdiction, but in some cases having a power outlet in a kitchen island is REQUIRED by building code. I think 20amp GFCI is recommended. and I think garbage disposal should be separate from dishwasher, but I'm not an electrical expert. I'm still trying to learn the basics right now.

The reason for the microwave having it's own circuit is that it can draw a lot of power. If you have it sharing circuits with other appliances it can cause a brownout or shut off (it can trip the breaker). Before we had the wiring re-done mine used to cause the lights to dim when it was used.

A note on island plumbing, make sure that a studor vent (AAV) is allowed in your jurisdiction, is accessible, and that somewhere on that drain pipe there is an actual full vent to the outside. It only handles the negative pressure, not the positive, and the diaphragm inside can fail within 2 years and require it to be replaced. Also, you can do a loop vent meant for islands.
tumblr_ntq8dyJbvr1uwberno1_540.jpg

tumblr_ntq8dyJbvr1uwberno2_400.jpg


Although, from my understanding this still has the same trap arm length restrictions as regular trap arms (and that limit depends on whether you are under IPC or UPC). IPC allows for longer runs-- I think you can have a 5' trap arm before it needs to vent.
Click to expand...

There is a vent in the cast iron pipe in the wall.

In my personal residence (not this remodel), there are no Studor vents in either bathroom or the kitchen. Can you explain that?
 
farmerjohn1324 said:
There is a vent in the cast iron pipe in the wall.

In my personal residence (not this remodel), there are no Studor vents in either bathroom or the kitchen. Can you explain that?
Click to expand...

That doesn't mean it was done to "present" code, or to code at all.

Not without you providing a floor plan and fixture layout.
 
farmerjohn1324 said:
There is a vent in the cast iron pipe in the wall.

In my personal residence (not this remodel), there are no Studor vents in either bathroom or the kitchen. Can you explain that?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure what you want me to explain.
Studor vents aka Cheater valves are a dirty fix for when normal vents are not possible or would be too difficult to do (either physically and/or financially). They are not ideal and are sort of a last resort or temporary fix until you can get proper venting. As I mentioned they only allow negative pressure and do not handle positive pressure so they are an imperfect solution. In some jurisdictions, studor vents are banned. It's likely the pipes in your current residence are either plumbed correctly and did not need the vents or they may be outdated and have S-traps and/or no proper vents. I don't know since I haven't seen the plumbing.

If you could come up with a general sketch of the layout showing distances of the fixtures from the vent stack, it could help. If the end of the trap in the island would be less than 5' from the vent stack in the wall, you could probably use the loop vent and run to that vent under the floor.
 
zannej said:
I'm not sure what you want me to explain.
Studor vents aka Cheater valves are a dirty fix for when normal vents are not possible or would be too difficult to do (either physically and/or financially). They are not ideal and are sort of a last resort or temporary fix until you can get proper venting. As I mentioned they only allow negative pressure and do not handle positive pressure so they are an imperfect solution. In some jurisdictions, studor vents are banned. It's likely the pipes in your current residence are either plumbed correctly and did not need the vents or they may be outdated and have S-traps and/or no proper vents. I don't know since I haven't seen the plumbing.

If you could come up with a general sketch of the layout showing distances of the fixtures from the vent stack, it could help. If the end of the trap in the island would be less than 5' from the vent stack in the wall, you could probably use the loop vent and run to that vent under the floor.
Click to expand...

The island will be about 12' feet away from the vent stack, so I'll make sure a Studor vent gets put in.

Why isn't one large vent stack enough for the whole house?
 
The short answer is that liquid replaces air in a trap and without replacing that air, the liquid will not flow.
 
farmerjohn1324 said:
The island will be about 12' feet away from the vent stack, so I'll make sure a Studor vent gets put in.

Why isn't one large vent stack enough for the whole house?
Click to expand...

You can have one vent stack for the whole house so long as all of the fixtures can tie in to it within their code limits.
I apologize if this is something you already know, but a breakdown of the system:
Fixture ->drain->P-trap->trap arm->vent. Sink drain is generally 1-1/4 to 1-1/2 inner diameter (ID). The P-trap holds water to prevent sewer gases from coming up in to the home. Anytime the pipe is filled completely with water, it blocks the travel of air. Trap should be 1-1/2" ID and coming off of it, the trap arm should slope downward at 1/4" per ft. The developed length of the trap arm must be no less than two pipe diameters in length (if less than that it would allow water to be siphoned out of the trap, thus allowing sewer gases up) but the developed length should also be short enough that the slope is not greater than one pipe diameter. If it is sloped too steeply or if the run is too long, water will block off the flow of air in the trap arm. So, 1-1/2" trap ID trap arm should be no shorter than 3" (although 4" might be recommended) and no longer than 5'. If you have any nearby walls or columns that would allow you to have an auxiliary vent that goes up before the length exceeds 5', it can tie in to the vent stack in a crawlspace or attic or inside of an interior wall. A drain pipe can not go horizontal until it is at or after a vent. The vent must remain vertical for at least 6" above the flood level/rim of the highest fixture.

The vent pipe must slope upward at about 1/4" per ft once it is horizontal.

So, say you have this island and you add a decorative column or two that go up to the ceiling, you can run the plumbing similarly to how it would be for a sink near a wall. You just use the column to carry the vent up and then, if space allows, run the vent horizontal in the attic/crawlspace/between floors to meet the main vent stack. Thus you would eliminate the need for an AAV.

Does that make sense?
 
In order to create the new circuit for the dishwasher, what do you think of this?

The circuit panel is on the other side of the wall marked with a blue dot. Instead of going the long route marked in green, I could take the shorter one marked in red.

XCamera-20171118_013133.jpg
 
zannej said:
You can have one vent stack for the whole house so long as all of the fixtures can tie in to it within their code limits.
I apologize if this is something you already know, but a breakdown of the system:
Fixture ->drain->P-trap->trap arm->vent. Sink drain is generally 1-1/4 to 1-1/2 inner diameter (ID). The P-trap holds water to prevent sewer gases from coming up in to the home. Anytime the pipe is filled completely with water, it blocks the travel of air. Trap should be 1-1/2" ID and coming off of it, the trap arm should slope downward at 1/4" per ft. The developed length of the trap arm must be no less than two pipe diameters in length (if less than that it would allow water to be siphoned out of the trap, thus allowing sewer gases up) but the developed length should also be short enough that the slope is not greater than one pipe diameter. If it is sloped too steeply or if the run is too long, water will block off the flow of air in the trap arm. So, 1-1/2" trap ID trap arm should be no shorter than 3" (although 4" might be recommended) and no longer than 5'. If you have any nearby walls or columns that would allow you to have an auxiliary vent that goes up before the length exceeds 5', it can tie in to the vent stack in a crawlspace or attic or inside of an interior wall. A drain pipe can not go horizontal until it is at or after a vent. The vent must remain vertical for at least 6" above the flood level/rim of the highest fixture.

The vent pipe must slope upward at about 1/4" per ft once it is horizontal.

So, say you have this island and you add a decorative column or two that go up to the ceiling, you can run the plumbing similarly to how it would be for a sink near a wall. You just use the column to carry the vent up and then, if space allows, run the vent horizontal in the attic/crawlspace/between floors to meet the main vent stack. Thus you would eliminate the need for an AAV.

Does that make sense?
Click to expand...

Yes, but I can't do the columns.

I will go with a loop vent instead of a Studor vent. In your diagram, there were two drain lines going back towards the vent stack. One smaller than the other. What is the purpose of these two drain pipes? Is one for mostly water and one for mostly air?

Edit: okay I get the purpose of the two pipes. One is drain, one is vent. If I used a Studor vent, would that allow me to only need one drain pipe?

Edit #2: After reading this website...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.familyhandyman.com/kitchen/how-to-plumb-an-island-sink/amp/

I'm going with the Studor Vent.

As a rule of thumb, should a Studor Vent be used when the P-trap (or fixture?) is more than 5 feet away from the vent stack?
 
Last edited:
I can't answer about the electrical, but it is not very common for studor vents to be used in regular houses-- they are mostly used in mobile homes/trailers where you don't have as much flexibility/space with your design plans. Most of the time the plumbers will encourage people to change the design rather than use a studor vent. It is basically a temporary solution or last resort.

How far is the side wall with the electrical from the island plumbing? If you want to run the electrical under there, maybe you could divert the plumbing and put a vent up in that wall and then route it back to the main stack- drain under the floor and vent in the attic tying in to the stack.

You can still go the AAV route, which would eliminate the need for the loop vent if you really want to. I believe you would do the plumbing just like you would for the vented stuff and just have the pipe with the studor vent come up about 4 to 6 inches. I've heard some people complain that sometimes studor vents can allow bad smells in to the air, but I don't have any in my home so I wouldn't know. It all depends on your budget and whether it is worth it to you to do it right or do it just cheaply and possibly have to replace the studor vent every few years.
 
zannej said:
You can have one vent stack for the whole house so long as all of the fixtures can tie in to it within their code limits.
I apologize if this is something you already know, but a breakdown of the system:
Fixture ->drain->P-trap->trap arm->vent. Sink drain is generally 1-1/4 to 1-1/2 inner diameter (ID). The P-trap holds water to prevent sewer gases from coming up in to the home. Anytime the pipe is filled completely with water, it blocks the travel of air. Trap should be 1-1/2" ID and coming off of it, the trap arm should slope downward at 1/4" per ft. The developed length of the trap arm must be no less than two pipe diameters in length (if less than that it would allow water to be siphoned out of the trap, thus allowing sewer gases up) but the developed length should also be short enough that the slope is not greater than one pipe diameter. If it is sloped too steeply or if the run is too long, water will block off the flow of air in the trap arm. So, 1-1/2" trap ID trap arm should be no shorter than 3" (although 4" might be recommended) and no longer than 5'. If you have any nearby walls or columns that would allow you to have an auxiliary vent that goes up before the length exceeds 5', it can tie in to the vent stack in a crawlspace or attic or inside of an interior wall. A drain pipe can not go horizontal until it is at or after a vent. The vent must remain vertical for at least 6" above the flood level/rim of the highest fixture.

The vent pipe must slope upward at about 1/4" per ft once it is horizontal.

So, say you have this island and you add a decorative column or two that go up to the ceiling, you can run the plumbing similarly to how it would be for a sink near a wall. You just use the column to carry the vent up and then, if space allows, run the vent horizontal in the attic/crawlspace/between floors to meet the main vent stack. Thus you would eliminate the need for an AAV.

Does that make sense?
Click to expand...

So basically, if the trap is >5' from the main vent stack, it needs either it's own vent stack, or a Studor vent.
 
Also, I'm going to give that over the range microwave it's own dedicated circuit, but can I ask why this is needed?

The MW I use at home is 1050 watts and plugs into an outlet, not dedicated circuit. This one is 1100 watts. What's the big difference, other than the fact that code requires it?

Btw, Florida uses NEC 2011.

Also, do you agree with this quote I found...

"One rule of thumb is to assign a maximum draw of 1.5 amps to each receptacle, which allows for 10 receptacles on a 20-amp circuit."
 
Last edited:
farmerjohn1324 said:
Also, I'm going to give that over the range microwave it's own dedicated circuit, but can I ask why this is needed?

The MW I use at home is 1050 watts and plugs into an outlet, not dedicated circuit. This one is 1100 watts. What's the big difference, other than the fact that code requires it?
Click to expand...


Exactly! The code trumps what you may view as common practicality.

farmerjohn1324 said:
Btw, Florida uses NEC 2011.
Click to expand...

As adopted, or amended?

Municipalities, state and local, can adopt a code out of hand, or they can amend it to include, address or fit a particular condition within their jurisdiction, however that amendment "must meet the intent and purpose of the code."

farmerjohn1324 said:
Also, do you agree with this quote I found...

"One rule of thumb is to assign a maximum draw of 1.5 amps to each receptacle, which allows for 10 receptacles on a 20-amp circuit."
Click to expand...

That may be that persons practice for household recep., other than in the kitchen, where a min. of appliance circuits is required by code, my general practice is a max. of 6 recep per 20A.
 
farmerjohn1324 said:
So basically, if the trap is >5' from the main vent stack, it needs either it's own vent stack, or a Studor vent.
Click to expand...
Yes. It needs its own vent- even if that vent ties in to the main vent stack. If you could get it to the wall and have it go up at least 6" above the flood level of the sink, it could then route horizontally (sloping up 1/4" per ft) to meet with the main vent stack. So, if the auxiliary vent is about 11 feet away and it goes up 1 inch every 4ft, that means it would rise a little less than 3" to reach the main stack (in a straight run).
But, if the drain still ties in to the piping that is vented through the main stack, you could probably use an AAV/studor vent.
 
Last edited:
Is there a power tool that sands drywall mud? Something that could speed the process up? I currently just have a pole sander. What do the pros use?

1118172311.jpg
 
We develop our talents to minimize sanding, however, Home desperado did have a sanding/vacume tool by Porter Cable for rent.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Back
Top