Hey Canadian Friends

I've always believed in evolution, and it seems obvious to me that direct personal experience is Mother Nature's best teacher. When a calf gets a shock from an electric fence, it remembers never to go near any fence that looks like that again.

Prejudice is one of the strongest personal opinions we have. But, it's not possible to become prejudice against a recognizable group without direct personal experience. No matter how many negative things we hear or read about a certain group of people, we always temper our opinion with the knowledge that we don't have any direct personal experience to go by, and so we never actually formulate strong personal opinions until we have that direct personal experience.

So, (and I know people are prolly gonna bark at me for saying this), I believe that there is always some degree of truth in a stereotype. That is, if a large group of people are prejudice, then I say the only way they could have gotten that way is if each one had direct personal experience that made him/her that way. And, I say that because the alternative is to say that thousands of otherwise sane and responsible people are behaving totally irrationally.

So, I'm not saying I'm prejudice myself. But what I am saying is that if I know that there is a large percentage of the population that is prejudice against a particular group, I don't dismiss it because to do so is to say that these otherwise normal level headed people are all behaving irrationally on only one subject, and that just doesn't happen. I find that it's more probable that each of those people had sufficient personal experience with that group to have formed a negative opinion on their own.

So, let people bark at me. I simply find that the above makes far more sense than to claim that "prejudice" people behave perfectly rationally in every other aspects of their lives, but suddenly behave irrationally when it comes to his one particular group. That doesn't make as much sense to me as believing that those people all became prejudice because of their personal experiences.

And, I guess that's because I believe that studying the differences between the various human races is a legitimate scientific endeavor. Unless and until we do that, we're gonna keep saying that we're all born equal and that we are made into who we become by the environment we grow up in. Environment may play a role, but unless and until we look at this scientifically, we don't know how much of a role.

I refuse to believe that a chihuahua dog will grow into a great dane if raised in a sufficiently nurturing environment. I find it more sensible to believe that there are important differences in the DNA of the chihuahua and the great dane that account for their different growth cycles. However, as soon as we start looking at people through the same lens, then the crys of "Racism" start. I feel that unless and until we study people scientifically, then to say we're all the same is just playing the ostrich. We don't want to know the truth. And, so my response to the cry of "You're a Racist!" is "You're an Ostrich!. Keep your head in the sand!"

You bring up the point of canines, no matter what you do to a Chihuahua it will never be a Great Dane. Its not in its genetic make up to mutate into another breed of animal.

I believe that prejudice is a learned behavior. When a child is born it doesn't know a thing, everything must be taught, even tolerance of others. When that child is brought up with hate, it will probably hate others. If that child is brought up with love, it will probably love others. Dogs can be raised to be passive or they can be raised to be aggressive. I have a 85lb Shepard-Lab mix, she can be intimating to strangers, I've taken bones out of her mouth, taken food dishes away while she's eating, why? Cause it was better for me to find out if she was food aggressive than the kids when they were young. We taught her from the beginning that aggressive wasn't allowed. People are the same. Teach them to be racist and they will be, Teach them to hate and they will. Teach them to work together in a positive way and maybe that would be a benefit for society.

I do believe that a lot of prejudice is observance of others and differences in life experiences but I've found that the better you get to know someone of a different culture the more we have in common.

And I also believe we can have a civi discussion without barking at folks

oldog/newtrick said:

Tx, now tell the truth... the biggest form of racism in Texas is the Beef BBQ people discriminating against the pork BBQ folks right?

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Not exactly. For the record in Texas if you want BBQ Pork your going to have to look for it.

Nestor,
What we qualify as personnel experience is not limited to direct contact. One of the wonderful expressions of our existence is empathy. It works in both a negative and positive context. Also our understanding of what is rational can only be understood through the contrast of other cultures. Within our independent cultures we find very little wrong and yet very much distinguishable. It's only through outside perspective that we gain the ability to rationally accept morality. As this is defined though our singular perspective all we have is right. It takes the third perspective culturally, or anthropomorphic visions of god to acquire the contrast that leads to negative postulations of other races. To say you are prejudice is merely to say that you accept the perception of an outside race our influence provided by the culture to which you participate.

Oldog/Newtrick & TxBuilder:

I can no more accept that you can teach someone to hate a person or group of people than you can teach someone to love that person or group of people. On matters of the heart like this, we each make up our own minds. You can train a dog to do what you want, but we humans tend to make up our own minds on how we feel about things.

Both my father and mother were prejudice against jews their whole life. I see them as being different in many respects from the catholics, hindus, agnostics and athiests I've associated with, but I bear them no ill will whatsoever. Those jews I've met in person or online seem to think much the same way I do, and so I don't find them objectionable to be around the way my parent's did/do. My mother believed every jew wanted to take over the world at everyone else's expense. I don't even know if she's aware that the Shalom Mission here in Winnipeg feeds the poor and homeless every Christmas and Thanksgiving, and provides a place out of the cold for them to go the rest of the time in the winter.

For me to make my point, you will have to decide if two fundamental points are true or not:

1. My first point is that direct personal experience is more influential in shaping our opinions on any subject than anything else, like things we've read or learned from others. If you got attacked by a dog, you're going to be wary of dogs no matter how much you read and how many people tell you that you have nothing to fear from dogs.

2. Prejudice is one of the strongest personally held opinions, and it can't be taught. There is a difference between being told something and knowing in your heart that it's true. For example, if someone tells you that someone is a drunken lazy slob, you file that piece of information away, but you don't form an opinion on that person because you yourself don't have any personal experience to go by, and you know not to trust word of mouth because it may be biased. No matter how many people tell you negative things about a particular person, you realize you've never met that person and so you reserve judgement knowing that you have no first hand knowledge to go by. It's only once you've met them that you form your own opinion based on what you've observed. It's only once you have first hand knowledge from direct personal experience that you have the confidence to form your own opinion.

My point is that if millions of people in the US are prejudice against a particular group, then:

1. I cannot believe that all of these Americans all blindly accepted what they heard on TV or on the radio or from their parents about that group without question that information. Human brains aren't wired that way. We each acknowledge someone else's opinion, but none of us will form opinions strong enough to be called "prejudice" or "hatred" based on unsubstantiated information. The only way any of us will form strong personal opinions is through direct personal contact and personal experience.

2. To say that those millions of people in the US are "prejudice" is to say that they're all behaving irrationally. These are people that behave perfectly rationally in every other aspect of their lives. I simply can't believe that so many people would have such a peculiar mental problem in only one aspect of their daily life by coincidence.

So, I for one, feel that it should be OK to scientifically study the various human races. We can't do that now because scientists get their funding through grants, and no one is going to fund such a study because they're going to be labeled as racist. But, the bottom line is that no one really wants to look under that rock because they know that what they're gonna find is probably going to be awkward and politically poisonous to deal with. I feel that it's better to look under the rock and to deal with what we find than to keep our heads in the sand and remain ignorant about it. The way we have been dealing with it is stupidity on stilts, by claiming widespread prejudice is a "quirk" of the south. All them otherwise normal people down there are just plumb crazy when it comes to that particular subject, ain't no rhyme nor reason to it. I don't believe that and neither does anyone else. We're just happier swallowing that line than looking under the rock.

I'm only disagreeing that you can't be taught prejudice. I think in debating many well spoken and intelligent people they apply their personnel experience without ever realizing that they are smarter than the majority.
Nestor your clearly intelligent. That puts you in the minority. It also disallows you to insinuate understanding of the ignorant thought process because it's not some thing your contesting with.
I understand that it's a logical self defeatist argument but my experience with racism in a population were the hated races race is minimal, is that the idealization and thus the stereotype is what becomes hated. Not necessarily the actuality of said race.

TxBuilder said:

I'm only disagreeing that you can't be taught prejudice. I think in debating many well spoken and intelligent people they apply their personnel experience without ever realizing that they are smarter than the majority.
Nestor your clearly intelligent. That puts you in the minority. It also disallows you to insinuate understanding of the ignorant thought process because it's not some thing your contesting with.
I understand that it's a logical self defeatist argument but my experience with racism in a population were the hated races race is minimal, is that the idealization and thus the stereotype is what becomes hated. Not necessarily the actuality of said race.

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Yep, what he said.....

I can see Nestors point of view and agree to a point but my limited experience tells me that for the most part its not so. Nestor you do bring up some good points and I'd still like to buy you a PBR if your ever in the middle of Tennessee. (thats a Pabst Blue Ribbon) oh, racism/discrimination is not limited to the south. All areas of the USA suffer from this condition.

Based on my experience on other forums, I'd suggest sticking to home repair topics and steering wide around political, religious and racial topics. :2cents:

It's all fun and games until......someone throws a :banana::banana::banana:

Yeah, all of us know Travelover is right. This topic belongs in the same bag as handguns, capital punishment and abortion. They're all problems with no good solution.

So, I agree. Why argue about it and get our blood pressure up when it's not going to make any difference anyway. I guess I just don't like to be told by the media that unless I agree with the politically correct version of things, then I'm a racist. I prefer to think of myself as a realist.

Anyhow, point taken, Travelover correct, end discussion, over and out.

Nestor_Kelebay said:

Yeah, all of us know Travelover is right. This topic belongs in the same bag as handguns, capital punishment and abortion. They're all problems with no good solution.

So, I agree. Why argue about it and get our blood pressure up when it's not going to make any difference anyway. I guess I just don't like to be told by the media that unless I agree with the politically correct version of things, then I'm a racist. I prefer to think of myself as a realist.

Anyhow, point taken, Travelover correct, end discussion, over and out.

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I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but in other forums the hard feelings in the political discussions boiled over into the other topics and........well it got ugly. I must say this is a pretty civil bunch here. :beer:

Alls well that ends well.

Nestor_Kelebay said:

Yeah, all of us know Travelover is right. This topic belongs in the same bag as handguns, capital punishment and abortion. They're all problems with no good solution.

So, I agree. Why argue about it and get our blood pressure up when it's not going to make any difference anyway. I guess I just don't like to be told by the media that unless I agree with the politically correct version of things, then I'm a racist. I prefer to think of myself as a realist.

Anyhow, point taken, Travelover correct, end discussion, over and out.

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Nestor, I sure hope you don't feel that we are /were arguing about the problems of our society. No malice was intended on my part about your observations of US culture. I really enjoy your prospective and value your comments.

Now on to other topics, how long does the snow cover last in Winnipeg when the white stuff starts falling? Does it come and go or do you have snow cover the entire winter?

oldog/newtrick said:

Nestor, I sure hope you don't feel that we are /were arguing about the problems of our society. No malice was intended on my part about your observations of US culture. I really enjoy your prospective and value your comments.

Now on to other topics, how long does the snow cover last in Winnipeg when the white stuff starts falling? Does it come and go or do you have snow cover the entire winter?

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Oldog/Newtrick:

Not at all. In fact, what I've found on every DIY Q&A forum I've posted on is that people actually like to hear ideas and theories that challenge conventional thinking. We all get tired of the same old propoganda, and like new ideas and fresh thinking that stimulates our own minds.

Up here, as the cold weather sets in, we will have light snow (typically occuring in late October) that melts when it hits the ground, or that falls at night and melts with the higher day time temperatures. Once it gets cold enough that the snow doesn't melt because day time temperatures are below freezing, then we call that snow "permanent snow". Permanent snow is snow that will remain until spring when all the snow melts.

This year we've been really lucky. We just got our first snow fall a few days ago and much of it has melted. There's still a lot of it around, so it's possible that this year the first snow to fall might also be our first permanent snow.

Also, most people that live in the south think that our roads are covered with snow all winter. That's true of country roads, or the roads in small towns. However, in cities like Winnipeg, it'll only be the back lanes and side streets that'll have hard packed snow on them all winter. The main thoroughfares have enough traffic that the heat from the car exhausts will melt the snow, especially at intersections where the cars stop for red lights. It can be -20 deg. Celsius and the main routes through Winnipeg will be WET or even DRY, depending on how much traffic there is. And, it's all cuz of the RADIANT heat from car exhaust pipes. The radiant heat heats the road, and that's what keeps the moisture on it from freezing.

Also, people often presume that ice has to melt into water before it disappears, and that's not true. It's called "sublimation". After a snow fall, we'll sweep the snow off of our cars just like anyone else, but there will typically be snow (or frozen water of one form or another) still on the car. If you don't clean that snow or ice off, it'll disappear by itself without melting. Even if the daytime highs are below -20 deg. C outside for weeks on end (as it has been many times in my memory) the snow or ice on your car will disappear on it's own. What happens is that the heat inside the car from the car heater will provide energy to the snow on the outside, and the frozen ice will absorb that energy and turn directly into a vapour. So, after a snowfall, everyone's car will have snow on it, but within a week or so afterwards, all the cars will be free of snow, and it's all because of the thermal energy from inside the car causing the ice on the outside to sublimate directly into water vapour.

It's kinda interesting to see stuff like that happening cuz it reminds you that so very much of what happens in the natural world around us is imperceptible, but yet can be very important. For example, before Isaac Newton did his thing, asking why something fell when you dropped it was considered a stupid question. And, that was just because gravity was so much a part of our life experience, that we couldn't concieve of a situation of there NOT being gravity to make things fall. So, there's stuff happening around us all the time that we're completely unaware of, and every time someone discovers one of those things, the rest of the world goes "Ah Hah. Now we know why that happens." and a whole new technology is born. People noticing what a current in a wired did led to the telegraph and the radio and morse code and the electric motor and to your cell phone. That's cuz that current in a wire generated an electomagnetic field that was strong and powerful, but imperceptible to us.

Anyhow, up here, the first snow will fall normally fall in October sometimes, and the permanent snow will typically come in mid-November or so. Spring melt will typically start near the end of March, but we've had some pretty bad blizzards in early April. By May, there won't be much snow left. Typically, about the only ice you'll see in May will be the piles of snow they clear off parking lots cuz they take a long time to melt. The melting is really noticable once the night time temperatures get above zero cuz then the snow is melting 24/7. And, of course, people here are happier and friendlier every spring when you can go outside with just a jacket on. We put up with winter, we don't enjoy it.

I'd like to live where people celebrate and run outside to make snowballs and snowmen when it snows cuz they so seldom see the stuff. Up here, snow, like the geese flying south, is a sure sign of the coming winter.