Moving tub and sink?

frodo said:

the call is up to you, if it was my home, i would replace all the cast i could.

but, if you want to try and save money..we can just cut out bare minimum

you can make up your mind after you see the inside of the pipes. they are either clear or plugged. most likely junk in them

sounds like your washer drain is an area drain,,,we cant do anything to it.

at some point, you do need to put a grate over the hole

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When we replace the stack, can we just connect the washer/kitchen sink/dishwasher drains into the new stack? I don't know what an area drain is. I assume it's bad? I'll be honest with you. I never noticed that the washer drained into the floor until I went down to take these pictures.

KatyE said:

When we replace the stack, can we just connect the washer/kitchen sink/dishwasher drains into the new stack? I don't know what an area drain is. I assume it's bad? I'll be honest with you. I never noticed that the washer drained into the floor until I went down to take these pictures.

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You can tie them all in, the problem he will be having is the vent. The vent is to provide air behind water, that stops the water in the trap from sucking out.
The fixture can only be X number of feet from the vent and you will be way over what ever it is for that size of pipe. A new one may have to go up thru the attic space or back to the bathroom via the ceiling in the kitchen.

Frodo said pvc pipe and fitting, don't be surprised if they want to sell abs instead. Up here we can't use pvc in the house, so that could be area code thing??

good point. where are you ? differnt parts of country, different codes.

I said the pvc, was a ballpark figure, with out adding anything up.. take that list i gave you, go onto homedepot
or whoevers site, and price out the materials. after you get your total, add 20% to it for whatevers

the water pipeing, we have not even touched that subject yet

I would like to install a drain for your washer, BUT, you have the washer sitting on a slab.

if you can figure out how to give me a half wall at the end of your cabinet

KatyE said:

When we replace the stack, can we just connect the washer/kitchen sink/dishwasher drains into the new stack?

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new drains and vents

nealtw said:

You can tie them all in, the problem he will be having is the vent. The vent is to provide air behind water, that stops the water in the trap from sucking out.
The fixture can only be X number of feet from the vent and you will be way over what ever it is for that size of pipe. A new one may have to go up thru the attic space or back to the bathroom via the ceiling in the kitchen.

Frodo said pvc pipe and fitting, don't be surprised if they want to sell abs instead. Up here we can't use pvc in the house, so that could be area code thing??

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I guess the vent thing is new to me, and I don't completely understand it, but I will run it by Jeff when he gets home. Do the fixtures drain to the current stack, and the vent ties in some other way?

Edited to say that I posted that before seeing Frodo's last message. There is a space next to the washer, where the drain goes now. It is set into the current wall between the kitchen and washer, and may provide what we need for the drain. I think just that space goes over the basement, rather than the slab. Also, I may not be using the term "slab" correctly. It is off of the ground by maybe six inches. Not enough for a crawl space, but enough to run plumbing under it if need be. Also, I think it is just a wood floor under the tile--not concrete.

And yes, there will be a wall behind the sink.

a vent equalises the pressure in the system....blah blah blah

http://www.jlconline.com/plumbing/plumbing-venting-explained.aspx



put your finger over the end of your straw in your glass of coke, pick the straw up. coke stays in straw..no vent
take your finger off of straw, coke drains out...vent

it also keeps sewer gas out of the house

every fixture has to have a vent, when you walk down the street, look at the roofs of the houses. usually on the back of the house.

the vent for your washer and kitchen sink can go up to the attic. in the wall above the utility area

KatyE said:

I guess the vent thing is new to me, and I don't completely understand it, but I will run it by Jeff when he gets home. Do the fixtures drain to the current stack, and the vent ties in some other way?

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Your stack goes up thru the roof, that allows the gases out but it also allow air in so that the traps don't vacumn the water out of the traps in the system.

The new location for the kitchen sink and proper set up for the washer will to far away.

KatyE said:

I guess the vent thing is new to me, and I don't completely understand it, but I will run it by Jeff when he gets home. Do the fixtures drain to the current stack, and the vent ties in some other way?

Edited to say that I posted that before seeing Frodo's last message. There is a space next to the washer, where the drain goes now. It is set into the current wall between the kitchen and washer, and may provide what we need for the drain. I think just that space goes over the basement, rather than the slab. Also, I may not be using the term "slab" correctly. It is off of the ground by maybe six inches. Not enough for a crawl space, but enough to run plumbing under it if need be. Also, I think it is just a wood floor under the tile--not concrete.

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Do the fixtures drain to the current stack, and the vent ties in some other way?

yes, a new drain line to the new kitchen location and washer they will drain to the waste stack.

where is the water heater?

The water heater is a few feet from the stack, basically under the current tub--opposite end from the faucet.

I took a couple pictures of the laundry area. Whether that works or not, we can build whatever we need for the drains. The kitchen will be a complete gut, as well. I hate knotty pine.

I think I get it now. So the vent and the stack aren't necessarily right together....just that my stack acts as a vent? So new vents need to be installed for the sink and washer, but that has nothing to do with the location of the stack, and they can still drain to the stack? And honestly, if that's wrong, you can just say no and leave it at that. I like to understand things, but I don't need to take up all your time just because I don't get it. The straw explanation helped me understand what the vent is for, anyway.
So, I feel like I have a decent idea where we have to start. Like I said, it will take a couple of months of saving pennies to be ready to go, but we can turn the water off to the tub in the mean time, and when we have the cash ready, we will start demo and get the stack replaced.
One other question: Since we are changing all the pipes and replacing the entire floor of the bathroom, does it really matter whether we move the toilet? Isn't the expense in the pipes and covering them up (walls, floor, etc.)? I mean, it seems like we're more or less starting from scratch. I had my mind set on the layout because I was trying to avoid unnecessary expense, but if upgrading the plumbing negates that goal, there might be a better layout available. Silver lining?

Frodo beat me to the straw as an example of a vacuum. LOL. He explained it better than I could have, though.

One thing that I don't recall seeing mentioned is about the required slope of the pipes. Different sized pipes require a specific slope. For instance, the smaller pipes (1 1/4" to 2") require a 1/4" per foot drop (so every 4 feet the pipe should drop by one inch). I believe 3" and above need about 1/8" drop. But, this is to be determined by your state's plumbing code and other factors such as the number of fixtures attached also affect things.

Likewise, the vent pipes need to slope upward at least 1/4" per foot for horizontal runs. This slope allows air to travel up, but allows moisture build up to travel down.

There was a post about plumbing codes by state-- if you can find your state on the list and identify what code your state follows you should be able to find documents detailing the required size of pipes for fixtures as well as slope.

There is a maximum developed length allowed for horizontal pipes because if the run is too long, the water line will be above the trap weir and will create a seal that blocks airflow. In some states the maximum horizontal run of a 2" pipe (prior to reaching a vertical run) is 8' but in others it is 6' or even 5'. Keep in mind that a vent pipe should not go horizontal until it is at least 6" above the flood level of the highest fixture it serves.

I take it the trap for your washing machine drain is not above the floor? I know that technically it is supposed to be above the floor. There's a diagram somewhere of how a washing machine should be plumbed. I'll have to dig it up.

Another thing to make sure of is that you have a full 15" from the center of your toilet to the edge of your bathtub and also have that same distance from the center of toilet to edge of your sink. I believe your tub also needs at least 18" to 24" of clearance on at least one side for entry and egress. So if the toilet is closer than that on one edge, you need to have enough space in either the middle or other end of the tub. I hope that makes sense.

I hope I'm not repeating anything that was already said. I wish you the best of luck on this project.

lets talk water pipe. i suggest you go pex. its affordable.

did you say you have 2 full baths and 1 half bath?

that would be ..3 cold openings per full bath, 2 in 1/2 bath, 1 at kitchen, 1 at washer, 2 hose bibs
hot... 2 -- in per full baths, 1- in 1/2 bath, 1 in kitchen, 1 in washer that is 19 openings

for a manifold block that would be around $250.00 plus 19 at 6 bucks each =120+250+370 plus pipe 100==470

crimp tool, !00.00 crimp rings 50.00

600--700 bucks. we can cut that cost by not using a manifold

we can knock off 150 by using a different manifold,

http://screencast.com/t/al5kY5wka

http://screencast.com/t/1EwcMYi6

http://screencast.com/t/IwvOJEzIY

KatyE said:

Totally agree with your thoughts. Unfortunately, the trap door access to the basement prevents it. The door lifts up out of the floor and swings toward the porch door. You then step onto the stairs going down to the basement. It has to be left open when someone is down there, because it would be very difficult to lift from below. So if someone were to open the trap door while someone else is in the bathroom, we could have a very bad accident. In my dreams, we would provide access to the basement from elsewhere in the house, but there really isn't another place in the house. We are stuck.

And yes, we do plan to add a door between the kitchen and utility room.

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I would suggest making one of your first priorities getting rid of the trap door. I did a little searching around and some information I found points to trap doors not complying with new codes or requiring fall protection (railings and such) that come up when they are open. Without knowing your total structure it’s hard to suggest another location for proper steps to the basement. Maybe some of the members here that are more familiar with code and home inspections will comment. Having a heavy door that might be more than you could lift may also evoke the confined space codes, I’m not sure. As you get older will you really want to mess around with a door like that and of course it will become an issue if you ever resell. There are lots of things to conceder with that trap door swinging up and blocking egress, leaving a big hole when open, reaching across to close it and the chance of it falling shut.

Could steps be put in where you want to make the new hallway to the bathroom?

One thing that makes me thing code might not like a trap door is the only places that seem to sell modern setups are overseas in the UK and such.

It’s hard to believe there is no other location that could be opened up and steps put in.

I will caution you as the discussion is becoming very detailed right down to what fittings to use and pricing things out. Make sure the big plan is in place first and it is 100% what you want. If it is then that’s great go for it. I know the plan is going to be try and do it all as a DIY project and that is great and that is what this site is all about. Just be certain of both of your abilities and have a realistic time line. I know I read someone say you can have that old stack out and a new one in within 8 hours and not have your second bath down for more than a day. That might be true for a crew with a truck full of tools and parts but as a home owner doing this in their spare time I don’t see it getting done in a day on their first attempt at plumbing. I know your budget is restricted also and I wouldn’t want to see you get any big surprise and not have the funding to keep moving ahead.

frodo said:

lets talk water pipe. i suggest you go pex. its affordable.

did you say you have 2 full baths and 1 half bath?

that would be ..3 cold openings per full bath, 2 in 1/2 bath, 1 at kitchen, 1 at washer, 2 hose bibs
hot... 2 -- in per full baths, 1- in 1/2 bath, 1 in kitchen, 1 in washer that is 19 openings

for a manifold block that would be around $250.00 plus 19 at 6 bucks each =120+250+370 plus pipe 100==470

crimp tool, !00.00 crimp rings 50.00

600--700 bucks. we can cut that cost by not using a manifold

we can knock off 150 by using a different manifold,

http://screencast.com/t/al5kY5wka

http://screencast.com/t/1EwcMYi6

http://screencast.com/t/IwvOJEzIY

Click to expand...

Just two full baths, no half.

So $600-$700 for the pipes, plus $500 for the stack? $1100-$1200 total? Well, it's more than I really want to spend on plumbing (it's more fun to buy crown moulding or something more visual), but if it needs to be done, we will do it. At this point, I think we need to finalize our plan, save our money, and in the meantime, cap off the water to the tub. It will be a few months before we can come up with that, unless we get a surprise tax refund (not holding my breath), so if the leak disappears, we will at least know where it was coming from. Then, when we demo and expose the stack, we can inspect it and make the final decision then. I would lean toward replacing it regardless, but with money being tight, we will have to see.
Thank you so much for your help, walking me through this process and letting me know my options, as well as what we really need to address, whether now or later. I will take the lists to the hardware store, get a detailed budget, and work on saving for it. In the meantime, I will lurk and pick up as much knowledge as possible, and come back for more information when we are ready to get going. Thanks again!

your welcome, If you have any questions, just holler. look forward to tackling the project.

I would also suggest, if you are NOT moving your trapdoor for the basement, to get something like this to help lift it:
SUSPA® 100 LB Gas Spring/Prop/Strut/Shock (set of 2) C16-08054

Maybe not that exact one, but something similar to make it easier to open the hatch so nobody can get trapped. Ideally you would have the access somewhere else and have a vertical door that opens to it.