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Old 11-27-2016, 10:22 PM  
nealtw
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I'm trying to figure out a way to have holes in the basin so that water will flow in and the basin won't push up, but also...figuring out how the heck I would test it if any water that you poured in would seep out of the holes into surrounding gravel. Both of the pumps will need to be tested regularly since it doesn't get water flow all of the time. I could leave some of the bottom of the basin solid without holes in it, but I'd have to make sure that it doesn't cause it to float.
Run a loop of perforated pipe around your pit close to floor level and have it enter the pump box after a back flow preventor, drill the rest of the holes in the sides above your start level. That way you could check run your test and insure there will always be water in the bottom so it can't float.

You are going to seal the pies in the lid, are you going to run a third pipe or hose to the outside for testing?


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Old 11-27-2016, 10:35 PM  
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my thoughts, sounds like you need to build a pit, the poly, will keep the water from undermining the pit


the top, of the mesh would be the same elevation, as dirt level of the area to be drained


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Old 11-27-2016, 10:43 PM  
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I'm tackling an issue in an icky crawlspace that I've had other threads about. Its a dug-out portion of a crawlspace approximately 15'L x 4'W x 3'H with a retaining wall around it. 2-3 days of rain and the rain comes in through the wall from seemingly all sides. Suspected that an old septic tank about 8-10 feet outside of the house (which has been found and filled with dirt since the last rainfall that triggered the pumps) may had something to do with it, as a potential "water flow hole" was found in a corner of the outside of the wall months ago. Got about 2.5 inches of rain coming up over the next few days, so if it triggers the pump, I'm going to see if a lot of the water was coming from the old septic tank that may have been filling and making its way to the crawlspace a few feet underground.

The only solution found after months of pondering and research was to fill that whole area with drainage gravel and install a big sump basin and strong pumps. The flow may be less now, but with a saturated ground when it rains, I still expect some to come in. So I'm installing a proper sump (which it doesn't have at the time) to deal with it.

So in this case, we're talking a ton of gravel all the way around and NO sump pit. Just a basin. Water would come from all directions in the gravel, so a basin with holes around it is needed to let the water in. There is no proper water outlet pipe to connect to the basin, so I'm struggling to find a way to make a basin that won't float itself out of the gravel and yet will somehow allow me to keep a bit of water in it when I want to test the pumps. Otherwise, putting water in the basin with holes in it would make it just flow out into the surrounding gravel that the basin is in. I could leave maybe a foot or so of the bottom of the basin without holes in it, but the only concern with doing that is the potential for it to float. Of course, each pump is about 25+ pounds. I'll probably stick some kind of brick or something in there to elevate pump two so that it alternates somehow, or I'll get a pump controller of some sort. Working with the manufacturer on that currently to see what they recommend. Most basins are little and therefore the drawdown is about 6" to 10" max for the average pump. I'd prefer to pump out way more than that at once to prevent short cycling and just to keep up with any heavy water flow that it can get sometimes.
..........


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Old 11-28-2016, 06:23 AM  
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So a basin itself in the gravel will probably float or move out of place?
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Old 11-29-2016, 04:00 AM  
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an area drain will catch surface water

a french drain collects water below ground

a pit collects water from pipes

you have suggested you want to use a sump pump pit

and you have suggested using a basin

i do not know which you are actually going to use...

a basin, out of concrete will not float. IF you use the poly apron to keep the water from under mining


if you use a pit [store bought] to collect surface water, you will need to concrete a floor

to channel the water to the pit

if you want to go cheap...use a 5 gallon bucket, drill holes in it

put the pump inn the bucket, dig a hole
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Old 11-29-2016, 10:38 AM  
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the bottom o the sump will be at the level of the old floor and with water coming in at floor level it's level should always be equal to the outside water.
http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=19909

If it does need concrete for weight, I think it is total cubic ft / 15 but boats with holes don't usually float.

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Old 11-29-2016, 06:46 PM  
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I could prod around on the floor in the hole with something and see if there is concrete underneath it. A lot of people seemed to establish somewhere back in that post (that Neal linked to) that the floor would have to have concrete or it would have fallen in long ago. That system is on a cement slab that weights quite a bit, then back in the corner, there's a 40 gallon water heater sitting on the dirt. That's probably pushing 500 pounds including the water. Beside where the pumps are, there is a cement ledge of some sort visible, as well.

The plan is already pretty much set in stone to hang the furnace from the floor and elevate said water heater. So basically I'd be left with the hole to figure out what to do with. The thing that I find irritating is that I'll likely only be able to get 30" of height for elevating that water heater due to the fact that they don't make them any shorter than about 46" to 48". I thought that lower capacity would make it a bit shorter, but they actually have some 30+ gallons pushing 54" tall and even taller than the 40 gallons. So, that's only about 30" or less max of gravel that I'd be able to put down. The only way to use the larger basins that I found (24"W x 36"L) would be to put gravel down into the existing sump hole and level it out so that only 6 inches of the basin would go down into it and rest on the gravel. Then the other 30 inches would be flush in the 30" of gravel and theoretically the lid of the basin would be flat or just slightly above the top of the gravel. Not sure how feasible that is going to be. We've pretty much covered the fact that an electric is out of the question. Not enough extra amps in the current breaker setup for that. External water heaters...I used to consider that, but I've had so many people tell me how unreliable they are and how often they break/need to be replaced that I don't want to even bother with one anymore. I'm beginning to think that I need to special order a shorter water heater (I've been told that there are some out there), but it might be fun trying to find someone willing to install it on-hand already.

I could use concrete to build a pit of some sort, and I get the general idea of your diagram. I just don't know how the heck to form such a shape with concrete without customizing a bunch of wood for a frame until it set. I'm pushing 45+ hours per week on average at work, so that extra time can be interesting to find. At the same time, whatever the solution is that will be used, I want to do it right the first time.

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Old 11-29-2016, 09:08 PM  
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He needs gas, not enough power for electric.
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Old 11-29-2016, 09:46 PM  
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Yeah, I'd love to get one of those if it could handle it. Just don't want to throw another $2K to $3K out there for another breaker box installation just for that. Apparently they used to make these lowboys in natural gas, as well...but discontinued them because they weren't that efficient or something like that. I think it was something to do with the inside flue not being long enough to be efficient?

Basically from the floor to the floor joist is about 84". The estimated 30" elevation for the water heater is all that I could do if I got a water heater that was 46" or so tall. I factor in about 8" inches for the flue and such and a little distance from the joists per whatever the code requires in my state of Georgia. If I could find a 40" water heater...I'd have 36 inches (the whole wall is about 3 feet tall total) plus 8 inches extra for the flue or whatever. Then I could add more gravel or just not have to worry about it flooding even if the power/pumps went out. It would be elevated at the top of the wall where it wouldn't flood anyway. Ideally, that's my goal. Pumps would be just to keep it not so moist down there, in that case.

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Old 11-30-2016, 08:38 AM  
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back in the 50's. they use to install water heaters. half in the attic.

the top of the heater was in the attic, the bottom was in a closet.

what do you have above you ?


I closet ?


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