Sump Pump/ Leaking basement

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taurussho91

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My basement likes to take on water. Over the summer we had a bad flood. Had about 3 feet of water in the basement. The sump pump just couldnt handle all the water.

I was wanting to add a second pump. If I make the hole bigger will this be ok to add the second pump?

Also there is an above floor crock down there. I dont know the purpose of this. I heard it tied into the creek behind my house. Issue is water ended up coming up out of this and adding more water to the basement. Can i break this up and cement this in?

Last question, should I take down the white boards and try to find whete its leaking and try to fix these cracks?

The basement was waterproofed on the inside with the track around. Just to much water to keep up.

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sump2.jpg

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Is that your house in the photo? Your basement is lower than that body of water? Is that high water or is that normal?
Is there a bottom in the above ground crook?

The crack in the foundation should be repaired and waterproofed from the outside.
Yes I think you can have a second pump.
 
We get a lot of water flow in our crawlspace basement. Our situation is different, but we have the same problem: water going where we don't want it. I do not work professionally dealing with issues like this, but I have a ton of DIY experience and a pretty vast knowledge of pumps and backup systems due to my endless research into our own water table problems.

How much water flow would you estimate that you get per minute? That is crucial to try to figure out. Is there a check valve on that pump? If there is one, it may be old and not functioning. If there isn't one, you really need one because it keeps the water from flowing back into the pipe and out of the pump again when it shuts off.

You need a larger basin if you can get one in there. That one looks rather small for that type of water flow. Most larger pumps require a minimum basin size because they'll pump it down in no time and cycle too frequently, which can be bad for the pump.

What brand of pump is that and how many horsepower is it? That will tell us how much it couldn't handle, at least. If you didn't install that pump and it is an old one, it might even be something like a 1/3HP. In which case, I would say...no wonder it couldn't keep up. But, I could be wrong and it might be something like a 1/2HP. All HP ratings are not the same, as some brands can pump way more than others.

How big is that discharge pipe? I'm going to take a guess and say that the discharge pipe is probably 1 1/2" by the looks of it running through the sump cover. Basically, a 1/2HP and 3/4HP pump can both fill the pipe to capacity by themselves. If you add on a second pump into the same pipe, it might fail or they'll both strain against one another and not be able to hit their true discharge capacity. How high is the vertical head on that pipe? That is important, as it lowers the pumping power of even stronger pumps.

A second backup pump is an absolute must and not even an option, really. Even if the main pump was keeping up and fails, you flood. If both pumps are working and the power goes off, you flood. Lots of options are out there for backup power. A lot of people tell me that they have a generator that they crank up when they lose power. For those of us that work a lot, that isn't feasible if you're not home to start it when the power goes out. There are generators that you can get wired into the house that will kick in when power goes out, but those things are probably half or more of the price of purchasing a brand new car. I can also recommend something regarding the backup power that would allow the main pump(s) to run on marine batteries in the event of a power failure, but first we need to address what type of pumps you need.

Let's talk about horsepower: typical sizes are 1/3HP, 1/2HP, 3/4HP and 1HP. Usually anything over 1HP is going to be some kind of effluent/sewage pump, and those things can eat up 30 or more running amps and aren't really mean for basic sumps.

What is going on in the photo of the house? Is that a high water event after a lot of rain? That looks dangerously close to the house.

I'm not sure what you mean by a crock. Is that the black looking pipe above it that doesn't even seem to lead directly into the sump pit?

Waterproofing is good, and by all means, try to seal as many cracks and waterproof everything that you can that will try to stop the water flow. But in the end, you need a way to move water when those other efforts can't stop it. That's a ton of water. I can't believe that they built the house that close to a creek/body of water that large. Plus, no doubt it is soaking into the ground and making the ground around your house extremely wet.

I don't know that much about waterproofing, but I can tell you of a variety of good pumps that would keep it out. For instance, I can help you make a pretty good choice of a main pump and backup pump that would combine together to evacuate 150+ gallons per minute (over 9,000 gallons per hour) out of your basement (if need be) and use way less than 20 amps with both of them running.

In the same way, I can also recommend a backup system that would allow you to power a 4,500 gallon per hour (75 gallons per minute) 3/4HP pump for hours or even days in the event of an extended power failure. This can be done by chaining marine batteries and using a small converter box that basically works like an inverter. It monitors for power failure, activates itself and uses the battery power. When power is restored, it switches back and it recharges the batteries and waits for it to happen again. Easy to install. It is nothing like the junk 12v pumps and actually powers the real, main sump pumps. I'll be installing one of these systems in a month or two, myself. The converter box is aboout $750 or so. The really good batteries can be $200-$300 each and they might have to be changed every 2-3 years. However, if they keep thousands of dollars worth of damage at bay, it becomes worth it. Everyone loses power during a heavy rain event at some point.

I don't want to recommend anything pump-wise that might be over - or especially under - what you need to keep the water out. Always plan for a considerable "what if" situation beyond the normal, especially when it comes to water flow.

What area/state do you live in? Is it coastal? Are there any tropical storm or hurricane risks that could cause flooding or knock out power? It looks like flash flooding there could be a huge issue, of course.

That is so close to the water. There are actually companies that make flood barrier walls that basically recess into the ground until needed. They sit in a channel and can basically surround the whole house if you wanted them to. It is like a dam around the entire house. When water flows into the groove in the ground, it lifts the flood walls up and can surround the entire house with walls that are something like 6'+ tall to keep the whole place from flooding. This is for above ground, of course. I'm not recommending those at all. I have no idea how much all of that costs, but it made me think of it due to how close you are to that water.

Has it ever come into the house in a flash flooding event? Is the house elevated in any way?
 
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Is that your house in the photo? Your basement is lower than that body of water? Is that high water or is that normal?
Is there a bottom in the above ground crook?

The crack in the foundation should be repaired and waterproofed from the outside.
Yes I think you can have a second pump.
Yes that is my house. Seems to flood once a year like that. It will be almost my entire acre of land with 3 feet if standing water.

I dont have the money to di it from the outside.
 
get in touch with a few excavation companies.a lot of companies are always looking for places to get rid of dirt free

make a deal, they get to get rid of dirt, you get a berm started.


you need to find out what size pump you have in the hole.

possibly, a larger pump will pump more GPM

also, I noticed, I did not see a check valve on your discharge line.

you need one. http://www.supplyhouse.com/Matco-Norca-523S08-2-PVC-In-Line-Check-Valve-w-SS-Spring-Solvent?utm_source=bingpla&utm_content=523S08

the pump , pumps the water out and turns off, with out a ck. the water in the pipe runs backwards back into the pit.

the pump says...oh hell, more water, pumps it back out, turns off, it runs back.

pump says. look here, i thought i got rid of you..turns back on pumps out..etc etc

with a check valve, pump pumps it out, turns off, water does not run back.

pump does not come on till needed. pump is happy


my advice, bigger pump

you may have to increase the outlet pipe size. depends on the pump
 
get in touch with a few excavation companies.a lot of companies are always looking for places to get rid of dirt free

make a deal, they get to get rid of dirt, you get a berm started.


you need to find out what size pump you have in the hole.

possibly, a larger pump will pump more GPM

also, I noticed, I did not see a check valve on your discharge line.

you need one. http://www.supplyhouse.com/Matco-Norca-523S08-2-PVC-In-Line-Check-Valve-w-SS-Spring-Solvent?utm_source=bingpla&utm_content=523S08

the pump , pumps the water out and turns off, with out a ck. the water in the pipe runs backwards back into the pit.

the pump says...oh hell, more water, pumps it back out, turns off, it runs back.

pump says. look here, i thought i got rid of you..turns back on pumps out..etc etc

with a check valve, pump pumps it out, turns off, water does not run back.

pump does not come on till needed. pump is happy


my advice, bigger pump

you may have to increase the outlet pipe size. depends on the pump
Yea I have a valve on my other pump just not on the main one for some reason.I have a second pump I throw in when the creeek floods over.

The hole is a tight fit with 2 pumps though. The house is up on a hill. Just to much standing water in yard. Creek bank when low is about 8 feet deep. I will see about building it up some more.
 
Yea I have a valve on my other pump just not on the main one for some reason.I have a second pump I throw in when the creeek floods over.

The hole is a tight fit with 2 pumps though. The house is up on a hill. Just to much standing water in yard. Creek bank when low is about 8 feet deep. I will see about building it up some more.


I would definitely put a silent check valve on that. That means that whatever it is pumping out, when the pump turns off, all water that is still vertical in the pipe will come rushing back down the pipe and out through the pump and into the basin. If you absolutely don't want to add a second backup pump, you need at least a 3/4HP pump and a 2" discharge pipe for that amount of water flow. The problem with not having a backup pump in there is that even the best of pumps will fail after a number of years, and it can be due to a variety of unpredictable causes with many factors involved. Without a backup pump, you'll flood all over the place, and way worse than you did before when the pump that was working just couldn't keep up.
 
You could stack the pumps on top of each other, but just make sure that you don't block anything and that the floats can't catch on anything. Some pumps have detachable switch connectors that are a bit like Christmas light plugs. You remove the switch with the float and install a floatless switch that detects water when it touches the electrodes. This way you don't have to worry about the floats getting caught on anything and the pumps could either be side by side or stacked. Some pumps have huge volume and are taller and not as wide, so some specific pumps might fit side by side. Others are wide and short.
 
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You could stack the pumps on top of each other, but just make sure that you don't block anything and that the floats can't catch on anything. Some pumps have detachable switch connectors that are a bit like Christmas light plugs. You remove the switch with the float and install a floatless switch that detects water when it touches the electrodes. This way you don't have to worry about he floats getting caught on anything and the pumps could either be side by side or stacked.

Would you run a separate pipe for the second one?
 
I'd put in a larger sump basin, two 3/4HP pumps side by side (one higher than the other as a backup) with a 2" pipe extending from each pump and a silent check value on each pipe. I'd prefer that each pump had its own 2" discharge pipe running all the way to the discharge point, in this case. What happens if the main pipe failed and neither pipe could pump anything? If each had its own pipe, at least one would still be working. In a super flow environment like this, I'd be more concerned about pipe failure, too. They had 3 feet of water in the basement with a pump that was at least pumping some water, even if flooding did occur. If both pumps ran to the same 4" pipe would that be needed and that pipe failed, they would both just cycle water. That flood might fill the entire basement. Plus, that 4" pipe is crazy expensive to run as a single pipe.

In that second photo, the current pipe is making two 90-degree turns before it even goes vertical very far, then no doubt at least one more 90 degree to turn horizontal to go to the discharge point. The pump is having to work even harder to pump around three 90 degree corners before even getting to the discharge point. Who knows how many feet of pipe it is going through, as well...if a long distance, it stresses the pump even more. While it will still pump the water, I prefer to use 45 degree angles to make it easier for the pumps to not have to go around 90 degree corners.

I'm not a big fan of stacking pumps...I once saw the result of someone who stacked them and it wasn't very functional looking.

After examining the photo of that current pump, that very much looks like a Zoeller pump. They're usually green and have that metal handle and white float design. The "Super Sump" label on the basin gives it away, however. http://www.basementsystems.com/sump-pump/supersump.html That is some kind of installed system that someone had put in, of course.

It all comes down to what model pump that is. On their site, they have a dual pump kit that uses a 1/3HP and a 1/2HP in combination, so I reason that they may have put in a 1/2HP. That's simply not enough and it is likely an old pump, so that combination is horrible.

Assuming that your pipe has a 10ft head, if that's a 1/3HP Zoeller, you're only pumping about 35 gallons per minute at the most. If it is a 1/2HP, it might be around 50-60GPM. Out of curiosity, how long have you lived there? Has it always been that way? They botched that install. Check to see if you can use a phone or something to take photos and find the stainless steel ID tag on it.

That flow pipe into the sump basin, by itself, is probably what...4"? That could unleash an enormous amount of water during rare flood events. Normally for regular drainage in a typical residential home, those 4" drain pipes leading to the sump don't fill up all the way. They might reach maybe halfway. With a creek that size beside you, it isn't unreasonable to assume that it couldn't at some point reach full capacity coming through that pipe. Then there's the other crock thing that you mentioned before. I thought I saw a second black "pipe" in the first photo, but it was actually the leg of the nearby shelf that I was seeing and it wasn't that visible on my phone when I saw it. Do you have a photo of the crock that you're referring to?

Until we find out the size of the pump and an approximate flow of water, I'm still going to hold steady that the discharge pipe is too small, there is no check valve at all on the pipe (half or more of that sump basin may be filling back up just from the backflow out of the pipe alone), there is only one pump and no backup at all, and the one pump that is there may not have a high pumping capacity. If that proves to be true, a new larger basin, a couple of high capacity pumps and a larger pipe should solve the flooding problem. A back power system would still be needed to prevent an imminent fail someday. If that creek ever rises to the point where it is actually touching and surrounding the basement, I'm not sure that there are any pumping systems that could keep up. You need some kind of built-up bank beside the creek to keep the water at bay, but dirt erodes in what would be swift water if that happened. I can't believe that they left that land flat like that. But then again, yes I can. Not too long ago, a news station covered a story about a company that built a subdivision of houses that are all sitting on a very high water table. Their sump pumps run 24/7 every few minutes just to keep their basement dry, and the survey papers distinctly instructed the builders that it was not advisable to put a basement in the houses. They did it anyway. Builders don't care nowadays. Looks like a newer house that you have there, as well.

Anything that you do outside without a proper company or permit will likely be illegal per the city. Things like building the bank up, for instance. You could build the bank up, but dirt will erode away when it rises during a flood event and has swift water. Even if you had the money, you could build a wall...but to where, exactly? It runs all the way down in both directions. Build one in front of your property and it will just flow up onto the land way behind the wall before it even reaches the area where your wall is. Waterproofing all that you can might help with the basic water flows, but this unfortunately one of those problems without an easy fix. Elevating that house at least 8 feet (as a builder suggested to me would be the only real solution other than moving) would probably cost $40,000. I know that you don't have that kind of money to throw to the wind, so pumps are about the only option.

One more word of advice: I do hope you have very good flood insurance that covers the entire house, just in case. I would never trust a creek and would honestly install some sort of (covered from rainfall) water alarms along the back of your house and/or in the basement at certain depths. Something to alert you and your family audibly to leave immediately if that creek comes up too high during a freak weather system. You never know when those can strike and they take everyone by surprise. Trying to waterproof it and install pumps and such is fine to do, and we'll be happy to help with any info that we can on that. We never win against nature, however. It could be in the middle of the night during a storm system when you're sleeping and you wouldn't know that a massive flash flood was about to take the house away and that the creek was flooding all the way up to the house and extending beyond it. So I'd figure out a way to monitor that in case such an event ever happens.

As an example, I live in the big city near Atlanta, Georgia. We have a major "stream" (can't believe they call it that) in another part of the city that flows for dozens of miles into other branches of water. Base flow for the stream is only about 67 cubic feet per second and about 3 feet during a typical day without rain. Flood stage is 17 feet. A stream gauge was installed in 1912. In 1919, it reached a flow of 21,000 cubic feet (160,000 gallons) per second and hit 26 feet. A 1" rainfall dumps 1.5 billion gallons of water into the local area. In 2004, it reached nearly 23 feet and was flowing at over 100,000 gallons per second. That typically 45 feet wide "stream" turned into 450 feet wide. It went so high that it washed its own flood gauge away at ten times the normal width, three times the normal speed and 300 times the normal flow. That gauge had been there for about 92 years, hence why a lot of people are always joking about preparing for the "100 year storm." You never know when that time will come. There have been smaller, but almost similar floods in various years since they have started monitored it. While that isn't really relevant for the area that you live in, it goes to show that every so often there are storms that are so unpredictable that they raise even the smaller creeks to devastating levels. That creek in your photo worries me just looking at it, and quite frankly, I'd be trying to find a way to move the heck out of there as soon as possible. It is way too close to the house and they should have never built the house there. There is no cost for life. I have seen floods of creeks and rivers where people's entire houses have washed away with them in it. They trusted the creek too much to not rise up and an above-normal rain event took them by surprise.
 
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