What is the feasibility and cost of flipping this furnace?

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jmr106

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The original plan was to flip the whole system, run it length-wise in the hole and hang it from the floor joists.

After heavy research on it, I'm thinking this will be a failure when I get a quote on it on Wednesday. I'm expecting them to say that it will cost as much or more than a new system to do such a thing.

So my other option and question to them is going to be...can they flip the furnace itself and give me that extra 2+ feet of space to elevate the whole machine, while leaving everything where it is? Someone is going to check it on Wednesday. I'd want to elevate it on a bunch of 16" x 16" paver stones. If it could be done, it would be probably 9 or 10 of them on each side stacked next to each other.

Just wondering if those of you in the HVAC community can chime in on perhaps a cost for something like that. Surely it can't cost as much as moving the whole thing would. I understand that the vertical flow coil would need to be changed out for a horizontal flow coil, which seems to run about $500 or so.

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I have to ask. Why do you need to do this? What's the issue with the placement now?
 
I have to ask. Why do you need to do this? What's the issue with the placement now?

Long story short, that block wall that you see is about 3.5+ feet below the outside dirt. The former owners that dug that didn't do anything properly, didn't install proper drains or anything. So that water seeps into the dirt (yet all of the top of the dirt crawlspace itself stays dry), then through the wall and runs across the floor of that hole in mass quantities.
 
A little update...

I had a couple of HVAC people come out on Wednesday morning for a spring inspection just to check the unit itself, as part of the service plan checks. I purposefully waited for that visit so that they couldn't charge anything for the call. He did state that flipping the whole unit itself would cost as much or more than an entirely new system. This was the same company that installed it in 2012. He also said, "Why did they put it down in the hole? Why didn't they hang it when they installed it? That is what they should have done."

He looked at the top air handler where all of the ducts connect and said that there is only about 3" max between it and the floor joists, so that wouldn't be worth it to try to elevate it up that much and would be a waste of time and money. Plus, 3" is nothing. I thought that the upflow coil itself might be a vertical only and may need to be replaced with a horizontal flow coil. He said that it is a multi-flow and could be turned with no problem. The furnace...he at first said that the furnace isn't a horizontal furnace. Yet in my photo, the sticker on the inside of the furnace shows clearances for horizontal and vertical furnace installation codes and rules with inches shown for each size of furnace. Then when I asked him again later if the whole furnace needed to be changed out for a horizontal (since he told my earlier that it was a vertical), he seemed to think that it could be flipped horizontal and the side with the big return on it would need to have that hole covered. Then they'd have to make another hole in the furnace and do some modifications.

So we're unsure on the furnace's ability to go horizontal. Or maybe he just didn't realize that it was horizontally capable when he first looked at it and later determined somehow that it could, which is why he answered differently. Other than the mods on the furnace and all ducts being changed for new ones (6 ducts plus the one larger return hose that goes just about straight up above the machine to the hallway), that seemed to be all that he was convinced was needed. He couldn't quote a price without talking to the installation manager. Any approximate estimates given that work?

He said he took some photos, got the model numbers and was going to go back and sit down and talk to his installation manager about what the best thing to do would be. I'm hoping that they'll consider that this was technically their fault for not realizing this to begin with and - if the bill is larger - give some type of discount on the labor. The old system flooded and was replaced. The old was installed by another company long years ago. It wasn't on blocks then, but that 1 foot elevation is doing nothing and it nearly flooded with the new one before I got a second pump down there. He did mention that the ducts would need to be run again due to various lengths and such, and that the unit itself may need to move a few inches in a particular direction. I told him my idea of elevating it on cement pavers like the single one that they have underneath the styrofoam blocks supporting the system currently. He replied with, "Well, they've got it on one already." I told him that I wanted to elevate it up on a lot of them and he seemed okay with that. He told me that if the furnace was flipped, that it would be "about chest high"...I can't see that happening, but it looks like it would be maybe around the top of the bricks (maybe 3 to 3.5 feet) if the furnace was flipped horizontal. I wish it could be raised that high.

However, that will be a bit useless for the water heater. Even if they can raise it that high for the system, the smallest vertical natural gas water heater that I could find was 46". It is about 7' from the hole floor to the joists. Considering 8" from the floor joist (not sure what code is in my state) for safety and code, I'd still only end up with 30" that I could elevate the water heater. I even looked at the 30-something gallon water heaters. Anything less than a 30's probably wouldn't work very well, I'd imagine. Currently a 40 gallon. It isn't that we use a lot of hot water or anything. Maybe a 10 minute moderately warm shower (low flow showerhead) and the kitchen and bathroom sink. That's all that we use hot water for. Any suggestions on that? If all went well with the system, then the water heater height would be the only determining factor of how much I could fill in the hole with gravel. Granted, 2.5 feet is most of the way up to the wall. The deepest parts (not counting the sump hole itself) can't be over 3.5 feet at most up to the top of the wall. Plus, I might want to leave that extra foot anyway...for changing air filters in the system and such.

Haven't heard from him yet. I presume that they're working on it, but will try to call them seem and see if they came up with anything.
 
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Furnaces in crawlspaces are tough. Not only are they hard to get to when you need to replace the filter or maintain them, but they leak and if there is any air gaps in the plenum the unit will pull nasty air in from the crawspace.

I just did a rental house rehab with this exact problem and ended up install a package unit outside. This eliminated the need to go in the crawsplace to maintain the system, stopped the musty smell, and hopefully will extend the life of the unit if there is a flood.
 
Furnaces in crawlspaces are tough. Not only are they hard to get to when you need to replace the filter or maintain them, but they leak and if there is any air gaps in the plenum the unit will pull nasty air in from the crawspace.

I just did a rental house rehab with this exact problem and ended up install a package unit outside. This eliminated the need to go in the crawsplace to maintain the system, stopped the musty smell, and hopefully will extend the life of the unit if there is a flood.

They were asked about an outside unit before the new one was put in. They weren't fond of having to punch a huge hole through the house foundation to run all of the air duct pipes all over the place, since all vents are floor vents. The cost may have been triple or quadruple the cost of a regular system. It won't be in the crawlspace per se, even if the floor is elevated only halfway. When you open the crawlspace door and get through the actual door, it is about 2.5 feet tall in the few feet of space between the door and stepping down into the hole. So even if I filled the hole 3/4 of the way, there would be a good 3' to 3.5' to get over there by foot by just bending down to avoid the floor joists.

It is about 7-8 feet at most inside of the basement door currently, so there is no crawlspace to actually crawl through, even if I filled it in most of the way. I can easily bend down and stand on my feet while slowly walking over on my feet, even in the area just inside of the basement door before you step down into the hole. There isn't really a smell issue.
 
I have some ideas but need some info before I say things that might prove to be dumb ideas.:rofl:
Can you get some photos of the duct work above the furnace?
Can you measure from the top right corner of the furnace to the floor joist and to the wall on the right. And from that spot on the wall to the floor joists.

I think I have an idea for the water heater to but is might need some math to figure it out.
Diameter of the water tank?
 
If the water tank was set in a big water proof box like an industrial tool box and the fill went around it. this on is 24x24x45, it would displace 15 cubic feet of water 800- lbs
40 tank full of water 800+ lbs
That would give you another 24" of height and be big enough to get down to the front of the tank although tight.

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The quote on flipping the furnace is $2,500 to $2,800. I'm going to consider that to not be worth it and switch to another plan.

There is a large cement block under the styrofoam blocks. It was the base for the system before this (the one that flooded). I've been to various home improvement stores. They don't sell these large cement blocks. I haven't measured it, but it is way larger than any of the 16" x 16" blocks and pavers that I saw at the home improvement stores. If I had to guess, that may be 30" x 30". Where would the former HVAC company have gotten this from? It looks like another 3 or possibly 4 of them might fit underneath. Why do the companies not use these? Is it because they feel that the moisture might wick up the cement? In the same way, that 400+ pound water heater in the back cannot be elevated on some little styrofoam blocks. So I'm a bit curious about whether or not cement blocks are a bad idea and what should be used for these applications.

I could still put crushed gravel on the floor, elevate the water heater, put in a proper sump basin (I may have to dig that spot out a little deeper for a new basin), etc. Flipping that furnace just seems like too much trouble and cost.

Any thoughts on what could be used to elevate it as-is in place of those blocks, and what might be similarly suitable for a water heater without worry of water wicking up it? Would it really wick up multiple blocks together?

The smallest water heater that I've found (still a 40 gallon) is 46" tall. Curiously, I noticed that a lot of the 30 gallon ones were actually 50 inches, while many 40 gallon ones were in the upper 40's. I would have thought it would have been the reverse. The larger the water heater, the taller it is. Less gallons would theoretically not be as tall.

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I have some ideas but need some info before I say things that might prove to be dumb ideas.:rofl:
Can you get some photos of the duct work above the furnace?
Can you measure from the top right corner of the furnace to the floor joist and to the wall on the right. And from that spot on the wall to the floor joists.


Diameter of the water tank?
........................
 
The quote on flipping the furnace is $2,500 to $2,800. I'm going to consider that to not be worth it and switch to another plan.

There is a large cement block under the styrofoam blocks. It was the base for the system before this (the one that flooded). I've been to various home improvement stores. They don't sell these large cement blocks. I haven't measured it, but it is way larger than any of the 16" x 16" blocks and pavers that I saw at the home improvement stores. If I had to guess, that may be 30" x 30". Where would the former HVAC company have gotten this from? It looks like another 3 or possibly 4 of them might fit underneath. Why do the companies not use these? Is it because they feel that the moisture might wick up the cement? In the same way, that 400+ pound water heater in the back cannot be elevated on some little styrofoam blocks. So I'm a bit curious about whether or not cement blocks are a bad idea and what should be used for these applications.

I could still put crushed gravel on the floor, elevate the water heater, put in a proper sump basin (I may have to dig that spot out a little deeper for a new basin), etc. Flipping that furnace just seems like too much trouble and cost.

Any thoughts on what could be used to elevate it as-is in place of those blocks, and what might be similarly suitable for a water heater without worry of water wicking up it? Would it really wick up multiple blocks together?

The smallest water heater that I've found (still a 40 gallon) is 46" tall. Curiously, I noticed that a lot of the 30 gallon ones were actually 50 inches, while many 40 gallon ones were in the upper 40's. I would have thought it would have been the reverse. The larger the water heater, the taller it is. Less gallons would theoretically not be as tall.

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There quote for a full change to the system. I am seeing a much easier solution .

If you knock down a couple blocks to the right the furnace will lay on it's side the round duct set up will still work, the chimney is still close and a connection to the main duct can be made with a ninety and You need to change a few parts around inside the unit to make it lay down. re hook gas line.
Sounds like one day and a ninety.
 

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There quote for a full change to the system. I am seeing a much easier solution .

If you knock down a couple blocks to the right the furnace will lay on it's side the round duct set up will still work, the chimney is still close and a connection to the main duct can be made with a ninety and You need to change a few parts around inside the unit to make it lay down. re hook gas line.
Sounds like one day and a ninety.

Any idea who might do such a thing for a more appropriate price compared to the big companies? I expected them to charge a considerable amount for moving stuff around and such. It just seems like they want almost the price of a new unit for doing very little without moving it much at all.

I'll have to get down there sometime soon to get some measurements/pics. Haven't been down there lately.
 
The first time I wanted to move a furnace I made sketches and took measurement and went and found the people that make the ducts and stuff locally. They helped me with what I needed and found a guy that was new in the trade but knew more than I. We had it moved in an hour and I had a gas fitter hook up the gas. All pretty cheap but that was a long time ago too. I would put an add on Craig's list and see if you can find someone that works more reasonable.
 
Those prices seem a bit high to me. But that's how those company's make thier money. It's hard to say without seeing it all but my guess is 300$ materials assuming you can spin that furnace on its side without disconnecting the copper line sets that tie into your coil.

So lets assume the furnace is hung horizontal. A few black pipe nipples and fitting to retie in the gas. If your lucky the electric has enough slack and you don't need anything. Aa little bit of 4" round stove pipe to Re vent it . Your return duct is a giant flex bomb , easy. What about your supply runs? Are they all flexes coming off your pmenuim?
 
What are my chances of finding a legit HVAC worker that works on the side without their company knowing? I was tempted to ask the guy what "he" would charge for it, but he had an assistant with him and some may also fear that you'd tell their company and get them fired I guess. I know that they are charging what the company wants, but they likely get like $20-25 per hour as a company employee. So part of me feels that someone on the side would happily take xxx hundreds of dollars cash to do it. The guy wanted to help me, but his install manager seems like a sales driven jerk. Of course, business is business.

Should I look for an independent contractor and get an estimate?
 
Those prices seem a bit high to me. But that's how those company's make thier money. It's hard to say without seeing it all but my guess is 300$ materials assuming you can spin that furnace on its side without disconnecting the copper line sets that tie into your coil.

So lets assume the furnace is hung horizontal. A few black pipe nipples and fitting to retie in the gas. If your lucky the electric has enough slack and you don't need anything. Aa little bit of 4" round stove pipe to Re vent it . Your return duct is a giant flex bomb , easy. What about your supply runs? Are they all flexes coming off your pmenuim?

My thing was to leave the plenuim where it is and just swing the furnace bottom to the right to sit on the wall even if that meant knocking down the blocks on level. With a 90 to join the furnace to the plenuim the furnace hole don't have to be re cut or filled.
 
What are my chances of finding a legit HVAC worker that works on the side without their company knowing? I was tempted to ask the guy what "he" would charge for it, but he had an assistant with him and some may also fear that you'd tell their company and get them fired I guess. I know that they are charging what the company wants, but they likely get like $20-25 per hour as a company employee. So part of me feels that someone on the side would happily take xxx hundreds of dollars cash to do it. The guy wanted to help me, but his install manager seems like a sales driven jerk. Of course, business is business.

Should I look for an independent contractor and get an estimate?

Let's see what Larry has to say but I am thinking you could do this yourself with a helper.
 
My thing was to leave the plenuim where it is and just swing the furnace bottom to the right to sit on the wall even if that meant knocking down the blocks on level. With a 90 to join the furnace to the plenuim the furnace hole don't have to be re cut or filled.

I just re read the thread , sorry neal I missed your intent as I just scrolled through the OPS questions without reading everything else. Yes , that's a good idea. Understand , residential sheet metal are some pretty basic parts that fit a nice new build . For an elbow like that your probably talking a custom fitting. But you could put that furnace anywhere and measure back to the plenuim , and create any fitting you need . Me and a helper could do that "work" 8hrs. But you should set the furnace them measure the fittings you need .

I would say , on the sidea you could go way cheaper. ASk your friends if they know anyone . Maybe craigslist but I find that sketchy . I'd say 1,000 labor or under , and that's a high estimate. Parts , depends on the guys plan and knowledge . If your handy you could pull it off yourself , just be prepared for setbacks or the learning process. Is it a big deal if it takes you 2 days , a week , a month ?
 
I just re read the thread , sorry neal I missed your intent as I just scrolled through the OPS questions without reading everything else. Yes , that's a good idea. Understand , residential sheet metal are some pretty basic parts that fit a nice new build . For an elbow like that your probably talking a custom fitting. But you could put that furnace anywhere and measure back to the plenuim , and create any fitting you need . Me and a helper could do that "work" 8hrs. But you should set the furnace them measure the fittings you need .

I would say , on the sidea you could go way cheaper. ASk your friends if they know anyone . Maybe craigslist but I find that sketchy . I'd say 1,000 labor or under , and that's a high estimate. Parts , depends on the guys plan and knowledge . If your handy you could pull it off yourself , just be prepared for setbacks or the learning process. Is it a big deal if it takes you 2 days , a week , a month ?

Thanks Larry, I did see a video on how to change some parts around inside the furnace.
So the first step would be to find the sheet metal outfit that could build the ninety.
 
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