Odd sewer pipe configuration

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jmr106

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Had to change this question around due to more details. When I first started digging around the sewer line yesterday, I presumed this based on what I saw in the ground:

28gs51d.jpg



An original cast iron pipe that is visible (the far left pipe next to the a/c) in the crawlspace. Then I found what I thought were two extra pipes to the right side of it. One had a section a couple of feet long. Looks like maybe clay pipe with the larger end facing the sewer pipe side. Just laying there in the ground with no connection on either end.

27yy0kj.jpg


A "third" pipe ended up being small pieces of either the second pipe or perhaps what was left over from a third pipe that is no longer there. Hard to say which. Got all of those out, and I'm left with this:

j110nn.jpg


Main sewer pipe joins with the active sewer pipe coming out of the crawlspace, but there is some kind of connection branching off from the main sewer pipe that looks like it might have gone to one of the old pipes that aren't there any longer. I've never seen anything like that before.
 
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Closeup of the parts in question:

2dje44j.jpg


24paufs.jpg


The top is hard and metallic like there is some kind of cap on the extension, but then I see what looks like some kind of rubbery pieces mixed in there. It looks like some kind of old p-trap or something and is going vertical as it comes off from the sewer line. Any pipe connected to the top of that - even long ago - would have literally been poking inches out of the top of the ground. Anyone ever seen anything like that before?

Note that the sewer line isn't leaking in any visible area. The puddle is from where I had to hose off the pipes to be able to see anything because they were so dirty looking that nothing would show up very well on photos.


Wednesday, I'll be checking with the city to see if they have property records and diagrams indication any old septic tank removal or existing tank out in the yard somewhere. As I figured, metal detecting the yard for pipes leading to an old septic tank/drywell would be a failure - everything beeps and I'm chasing rocks, various old metal pieces of stuff thrown down over the years, etc.

What are the chances of the remainder of these old, broken pipes under the foundation increasing water flow into the crawlspace? Would they wick water or is it not really worth it to chase them into the crawlspace?
 
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So the sewer line goes out behind the house, are you still on a septic tank?

Nope, they are on city sewer. Both of the current sewer lines go out behind the house, but then join the same main sewer pipe. That pipe runs over to the side of the house (upper left of photo) and joins the sewer pipe that apparently 90s and runs straight out to the road. They have been on city sewer since my parents got the house in '79 and who knows how long the former owners were on it before that.

I expected to find pipes continuing on (basically where the pile of dirt is on the left) and running out into the yard, having been cut off by the modern sewer pipe. I haven't had a lot of time to dig there yet. I'm thinking they just cut the pipes and ran the sewer in between. Not sure if they would have removed those.

I'll see what the city has to say. I've read that you can ask if there was a septic abandonment permit. Apparently some states require them if you hook up to city sewer and leave the septic tank. Of course, it is possible that they may have removed it. It seems that if it was removed, that is supposed to also be noted on the property records/maps. In the meantime, I'm going to gather all info about this property that they have in one sweep. I'd like to see the land maps and see what kind of stuff they did with this land when they built the house. It sure would ease my mind if there was in fact some kind of ditch, drain, etc., that they covered up and dug into when the crawlspace was dug out. It would at least explain the crawlspace water flow issues. Tried to look up stuff online like how many former owners the house had, building plans, work permits, land layout, etc. I'm not kidding, some of the sites that purportedly are state/county-related want $300+ for one report. I don't think they're legit or they're trying to charge for public records for a huge profit. I remember going to the courthouse and paying $10-15 at most to get the name and owner info for the house next door when they had something going on with an unrelated issue. Took them minutes to look it up and print me a copy from the computer. I hope the property maps and such are also scanned in that way. So I'll see what I can find. No more digging until I find out more Wednesday.

Should I cut this weird extension part out of the pipe and bridge it with pvc and Ferncos while I have it uncovered? Looks like part of the lid is broken, but the rubber stuff is still blocking the pipe.

I'm also pondering chasing those second/third pipes under the foundation of the house to see if they continue. However, I'm not sure that those would really contribute to the water issue if they're full of dirt. Not completely sure if that's worth it, but I want to see what the foundation itself is like, if there is one.

I've pondered getting one of those lighted pipe inspection cameras and pushing it into the dirt hole in the crawlspace (the purported water flow hole behind the retaining wall) to see where it goes. Home Depot does rent them (I think you linked to one before), but I see that they want $300 deposit and it is literally about $170 or so for 4 hours. To rent it for one day is like $400-$500 if I remember correctly. Very large piece of equipment that would be very awkward to get down into the tight crawlspace. Pretty high price, too.

I'm not sure that there is a slab foundation on the house. I think that is called rubblestone or something like that. The way that the crawlspace toilet/sewer pipe (the one closest to the a/c) is running right up under the foundation and just under the surface dirt outside...I can't see how there would be a foundation there. Digging under that is probably going to take me directly to the crawlspace dirt. Could that be why the water flow is higher down there?
 
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Years ago I was the grunt for an outfit hooking houses to sewer, old septic tanks had to be broke down and filled with sand to keep the rats out.
With basement houses we just hooked up to the old lines and when around the house, with non basement we redid everything under the house and took the shortest route out the front.
That curved pipe in the yard might have been a whole house trap, but the ones we came across had two clean outs.

Frodo should be along to give you some real advice.
 
Years ago I was the grunt for an outfit hooking houses to sewer, old septic tanks had to be broke down and filled with sand to keep the rats out.

If one has been removed and no longer there, or filled in...I'm fine with leaving it there if it isn't causing drainage issues in the yard. However, I have also come across endless news reports of adults and children dying at enormous rates from randomly falling into these old septic tanks/cesspools/drywells with metal/concrete covers that rot away over the years. Apparently methane fumes can be so strong from an unfilled old septic tank that simply taking the (very heavy) lid off and/or standing over the opening has caused people to pass out and fall in/drown. That's pretty scary. 3 adults and a dog walk that back yard many times per day.
 
They are usually where you can find them, they did have to be pumped out from time to time.

They were never far from the house.
 
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Due to the topography of our area, our sewer line goes out the back of our house. The neighbors' across the street sewers go out the back of their houses as well. The sewer lines take a completely different path to the town sewage treatment path 2 miles away.

When my childhood home got sewers back in the 1970's they didn't make us tear out or even pump out the old tanks, they were just abandoned in place. They were concrete tanks & lids so little fear of the top or cover caving in. My dad built a large addition to our house after the sewers were put in and we had to pump the tank at that time because it wound up in the crawlspace.

That is a mess of pipe you have there. You might need to get them checked with a camera to see which ones are still in use. Are you getting water in the crawlspace? What problem made you decide to go on this archeological dig?
 
Due to the topography of our area, our sewer line goes out the back of our house. The neighbors' across the street sewers go out the back of their houses as well. The sewer lines take a completely different path to the town sewage treatment path 2 miles away.

When my childhood home got sewers back in the 1970's they didn't make us tear out or even pump out the old tanks, they were just abandoned in place. They were concrete tanks & lids so little fear of the top or cover caving in. My dad built a large addition to our house after the sewers were put in and we had to pump the tank at that time because it wound up in the crawlspace.

That is a mess of pipe you have there. You might need to get them checked with a camera to see which ones are still in use. Are you getting water in the crawlspace? What problem made you decide to go on this archeological dig?
http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=21057
And check out post 19
 
That is a mess of pipe you have there. You might need to get them checked with a camera to see which ones are still in use. Are you getting water in the crawlspace? What problem made you decide to go on this archeological dig?

Long story. There's a ton of threads about it at various times and places. This is an issue of water flowing into the crawlspace in a very unique situation.

The latest pic has the only two active pipes. Both coming out of the house and joining the main sewer line. I've removed the broken ones, but still looking for a source of water. I'm also chasing a mystery object with "tin" over it that was dug up once or twice over the years by someone who isn't here any longer to give me details. Looking for anything to explain the enormous water flow during 2-3 day rains. Most comes from one side of the wall, it appears. There's a hole in the crawlspace dirt there that looks like a pipe is somehow feeding it or something.
 
They were concrete tanks & lids so little fear of the top or cover caving in.


Maybe then, but this place is 66 years old. I'll find out hopefully tomorrow from the city when this property went on sewer. Lots of cement/concrete septic tank lids are crumbling and caving in killing people all over the country now. Apparently those are ranging from the 1930's to 50's. So it is a safety issue that I'm trying to cover while solving these other problems, too.
 
My childhood home is now 60 years old. Not sure of the condition of the tank today as we moved when I graduated from HS. A concrete tank shouldn't be falling apart unless it was affected by the freeze-thaw cycle. Breaking the top and filling it in would require compaction as you go, or it will settle over time.
 
If you have access to the end of one of those broken pipes, stuff a hose into the end and see if it flows into the crawlspace. Depending on the results, do the same to the other. A pipe that has the end stuffed with dirt is not necessarily completely full or it may have stones in it that will allow flow.
 
If one has been removed and no longer there, or filled in...I'm fine with leaving it there if it isn't causing drainage issues in the yard. However, I have also come across endless news reports of adults and children dying at enormous rates from randomly falling into these old septic tanks/cesspools/drywells with metal/concrete covers that rot away over the years. Apparently methane fumes can be so strong from an unfilled old septic tank that simply taking the (very heavy) lid off and/or standing over the opening has caused people to pass out and fall in/drown. That's pretty scary. 3 adults and a dog walk that back yard many times per day.

If the city can tell when the sewers were installed, they should be able to tell you if filling the tank was part of the deal at the time.
 
i did not read 2 pages

in my area, old sections of town used septic tanks for years. they were generally in the back yard.
then, the city ran a sewer main down the middle of the street, and gave the home owners a time period to hook the sewers up.
the plumbers would come in and cut the line as it exits the house, and run it around the house to the street

looks like that is what happened at our place, from the looks of the pipes. i would replace the whole run with plastic.

we also would fill the old septic tanks, we found the cheapest way was to use sand, using sand, and wetting it , you will not have to compact it
saves in labor and equipment

if it were my house, i would enter the crawl space, and reroute the pipes to exit out the front of the house, instead of going around it.
pricey..but a better system
 
At the front he will have to check the depth to see if the new pipe could go below the footing.
 
Not sure about now, but maybe 15 years ago you didn't need an abandonment permit here, but you had to disclose that info on a house sale and you had to also stake it's location or you were liable for every future issue involving the tank. Underground fuel tanks were the same but I know you need permit to do anything with those now.

You really need to find out about the old tank and those pipes. My brother located the septic tank at my Mom's house with his VW- both rear wheels broke through the 'lid' which turned out to be just plywood! It's sheer luck that the whole back end of the car didn't go in, we had a heck of a time getting it out as it was. Had a concrete lid set there so all is well now. Yes, the fumes (more rightly the lack of any oxygen) can kill you but the biggest danger is infection if the skin is broken before or during the mishap.

Generally a septic tank will follow a straight line from the first stick of pipe after the one leaving the house- turns are usually made there if they are needed. Probe the soil with a small stiff rod down to a few feet and you should find it. You might also locate it by the greeness of grass over the drain field lines since they "y" off just past the tank. Look at the land and think of where you'd set a tank and that's often where it is. If it's not filled, I'd do that for sure.

Phil
 
If you have access to the end of one of those broken pipes, stuff a hose into the end and see if it flows into the crawlspace. Depending on the results, do the same to the other. A pipe that has the end stuffed with dirt is not necessarily completely full or it may have stones in it that will allow flow.

That's my current problem. The "two" pipes turned out to be one section of clay pipe that was a couple of feet long and the third pipe was just fragments that happened to be in a solid fashion that made me think it was another pipe when I first hit them. I haven't found any other piping going back towards the house or connected to the sewer line other than the main line that I know is active. So now I'm wondering how much of those pipes is under the edge of the foundation and in the crawlspace. I went right up against the house foundation in most of that area and I haven't found any other pipes and just found a few more broken pieces of clay pipe. So now at the current time, I don't know if the pipes go out into the yard still (because my pile of dirt from the current dig is in that general area) or if they extend into the crawlspace and are just hiding under the foundation.

But given that I don't see water absolutely pouring out of the drains of retaining walls that are right out in the open when it rains a lot...there shouldn't be any reason why it comes out so much in a closed crawlspace. Sure, if the ground is saturated, some would come in. Just not the rate that I've seen.
 
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My childhood home is now 60 years old. Not sure of the condition of the tank today as we moved when I graduated from HS. A concrete tank shouldn't be falling apart unless it was affected by the freeze-thaw cycle. Breaking the top and filling it in would require compaction as you go, or it will settle over time.

Not saying that you're particularly wrong, but a lot of kids and older people have died from stepping on concrete lids http://www.cbsnews.com/news/sinkhole-danger-old-septic-tanks/ from old septic tanks/cesspools. Granted, maybe some are stronger than others. But they noted that "as the homes were modernized, the cesspools were abandoned and forgotten. During the years, however, the concrete covers crack and break down, which could lead to a sinkhole in your yard." One lady's son was 2 years old and fell in one just outside of their house. While she was trying to pull him out, pieces of the concrete lid were falling in on top of him. So for whatever reason, I guess some states might be worse than others (temperatures, environment, etc.).
 

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