Seeking Assistance/ Junction Box (Ceiling)

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Synoptic12

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005 A.JPG 007 A.JPG Seeking assistance in attaching an octagon box (preferably metal) to finished ceiling (dryvit) in garage. I would like to attach the box securely at the bottom of the joist, 'not' side, nor using any other system; i.e.> hangers, tabs, bars, etc. This seems to be feasible contingent upon the original builders usage of the dryvit in adding 2 1/2" x 3/4" slats underlying the joists. Drywall was placed to the slats, then dryvit being used. Should I have enough clearance in the metal octagon box being or sitting flush with the "bottom" of joists?
Some pics are enclosed, as a short clip showing more detail is included (Link). Any and all responses are very much welcome.
https://streamable.com/6nact
 
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Yes, thank you. I'm well aware of that aspect in not using any box but wished to maintain "code". I know not whether it may be code, but assuming it is. Would old work suffice as new work; speaking of the box? I may wish to add an AC outlet for a garage door opener. In this respect, would I use 12/2 or 12/3 wire? The switch is already working with two other garage lights, namely (2) 17 watt florescent. I believe there is ample wattage (enough juice) to power another light on the same circuit. I know that 12/2 is for 20 amp and 14/2 for 15 amp. Could I use 12/2 on a 15 amp breaker, irrespective of the run (length)?

Looking at the pics, do you believe that an octagon box would sit flush with the ceiling? There are cross slats (pictured) of 2 1/2" x 3/4" across the joists. I would believe this step was necessary to apply the sheet rock in using dryvit. I'm kind of a technical person when working with electrical. It's a good thing that slats were used or I would have never been able to snake a wire without cutting holes galore. One benefit to the dryvit. Sorry for the long reply. I appreciate your assistance.
 
1st you'll need to have a power source, preferably on the garage door side of the structural header, and just having a switch leg isn't enough, you'll need a hot pair.

For your application, as Neal stated, you would not necessarily need an outlet box because the fixtures could be hung from toggle bolts and the elec. connections made in the fixtures.

However if your intent is to have fixtures plugged in and a switched recep., or eventually add door operators, you'll need additional elec.

There is nothing wrong with mounting the box to the bottom of the joist, as in the video.
 
Yes, thank you. I'm well aware of that aspect in not using any box but wished to maintain "code". I know not whether it may be code, but assuming it is. Would old work suffice as new work; speaking of the box? I may wish to add an AC outlet for a garage door opener. In this respect, would I use 12/2 or 12/3 wire? The switch is already working with two other garage lights, namely (2) 17 watt florescent. I believe there is ample wattage (enough juice) to power another light on the same circuit. I know that 12/2 is for 20 amp and 14/2 for 15 amp. Could I use 12/2 on a 15 amp breaker, irrespective of the run (length)?

Looking at the pics, do you believe that an octagon box would sit flush with the ceiling? There are cross slats (pictured) of 2 1/2" x 3/4" across the joists. I would believe this step was necessary to apply the sheet rock in using dryvit. I'm kind of a technical person when working with electrical. It's a good thing that slats were used or I would have never been able to snake a wire without cutting holes galore. One benefit to the dryvit. Sorry for the long reply. I appreciate your assistance.

If you are going to add a plug circuit for the operators you will need 12/3 and a grnd.
 
Thank you very much. I do not know what a hot pair is. There is a switch and AC outlet on the wall near garage door, powering the garage door lights and outside garage door light. I've included a couple of pics. Do you mean 'garage door side' as being the wall of the garage doors. Please look at the pics if you could and point out where the 'hot pair' would be.009 A.JPG 012 A.JPG 009 A.JPG 012 A.JPG
 
imageedit_1_6291452351 - Copy.jpg 006.JPG
If you are going to add a plug circuit for the operators you will need 12/3 and a grnd.
Thanks, excellent. When you state ground, would that mean in using a 'metal' box?

* I thought I included this picture which I'm enclosing. You can see how the builder attached the octagon box to sit below the joist. If the slats go all the way across into the garage, that leaves about 3/4" leeway. This is how I can snake a rod through. Tried about 4 feet and there was more to go. I'll have to purchase a 12ft. rod for that's how far I must go. Do you believe that the octagon box will sit flush?006.JPG
 
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A hot pair is generally a black, a white and a grnd., in todays wiring scheme of things.

Romex, the black and white cables in you photo's, for household wiring, are generally found in configurations of 14/2 & 14/3 and a grnd,, and 12/2 & 12/3 and a grnd.

The grnd. conductor is a bare uninsulated strand of copper either the same size as the stated conductors, 12, or 14, or on size smaller.

Code dictates that you must be able to illuminate with a switched device within 6' of an areas entrance, so can I assume that the switches are near the pedestrian door?

In the photo with the 2 switches and a timer. This should be a 15AMP box with a hot pair for the switched fixtures and the timer. You can determine this by shutting off the breaker that controls the garage lights.

The box with the single recep. will also be a hot pair.

The 1x strapping and the 5/8" drywall will total 1-3/8", so that is the depth of any box you mount and expect it to be flush with the drywall.

There are things like box fill to be considered, and which will affect how cluttered or uncluttered you want the installation to be.
 
001.JPG Thanks, finally a response that I can interpret and is well presented. The switches are near the 'interior garage door' (8 feet to exterior wall). Would the interior garage door be considered an 'area of entrance'? If so, the switches with timer are about two to three feet (From Interior Garage Door, 'not' Entry Door.Was not aware of that code in being six feet. It could be 15 amp, did not check but easy enough. The entry door has three switches, about two to three feet from exterior wall.
*Thanks much, you have helped me considerably. Pic of the interior garage door near switches. Thought the vid may have shown that detail but have not even looked at it.
 
Thanks.

The video shows another pedestrian door, painted white, on the overhead door side of the header.

Are there any recp. or switches in the area of the pedestrian door?

The reason I'm asking is the structural header could be a problem to bridge, in order to get a switch leg and plug circuit on the other side.
 
The 'pedestrian' door you refer to in the video is a doorway leading to the lower level of the home, actually there is an aluminum (not white) door; sheathing applied to the door as a fire-stop. No problem to get an AC outlet in the ceiling area, along with a junction box. The 'above' picture clearly shows a AC outlet and switches. I'm not using the other side; there are already two lights stationed above. A little difficult to comprehend your actual meaning. Pic enclosed of lights on other side of structural beam. I believe the current switch (as pictured) near garage door entry way shall suffice to power a third light on the opposite side of the header, along with an AC outlet in ceiling for garage door motor. Can you clarify your response according to the aforesaid.005 A.JPG
 
The joists are sitting on that beam so there will be room to run wire from the existing lights to new lights using the switch that is already in use.
 
The joists are sitting on that beam so there will be room to run wire from the existing lights to new lights using the switch that is already in use.

Without someone cutting a hole in the ceiling, on either side of that structural header, I don't know that, and would never assume it, because the floor joists could very well be hung from that header.
 
The 'pedestrian' door you refer to in the video is a doorway leading to the lower level of the home, actually there is an aluminum (not white) door; sheathing applied to the door as a fire-stop.
As a point of clarification, the overhead garage doors are not assumed to be a "foot traffic" entry door, unless they are the only entry door.

A pedestrian door, 2 different ones pictured, are considered the entry doors. There should also be a switch at both these doors that will afford the garage to be illuminated.

No problem to get an AC outlet in the ceiling area, along with a junction box..
You're there and I don't know that and it's why I pose the possibilities I have.

The 'above' picture clearly shows a AC outlet and switches..
Previously addressed.

I'm not using the other side; there are already two lights stationed above..
Then you should be able to connect to that switch leg and add fixtures to the other side of the header. The recep may be a different story.

As another point of clarification, could you provide a 1 line drawing of the garage floor plan showing the pedestrian doors, the overhead garage doors, the switches and recep., and a dashed line depicting the structural header.

A little difficult to comprehend your actual meaning. Pic enclosed of lights on other side of structural beam. I believe the current switch (as pictured) near garage door entry way shall suffice to power a third light on the opposite side of the header, along with an AC outlet in ceiling for garage door motor. Can you clarify your response according to the aforesaid.View attachment 20464

I'm familiar with your garage layout, I just don't know where things are, and the drawing will help.
 
Without someone cutting a hole in the ceiling, on either side of that structural header, I don't know that, and would never assume it, because the floor joists could very well be hung from that header.
Yeah, that is a wide garage, the beam could go all the way up.
 
Without someone cutting a hole in the ceiling, on either side of that structural header, I don't know that, and would never assume it, because the floor joists could very well be hung from that header.

It should be obvious that if the floor joists were hung from the side of that beam, rather than sitting on top of it then there would be no beam box below the ceiling. The Floor / ceiling assembly joists run at right angle to the beam and the strapping runs parallel to it. That said though, the ceiling strapping would be just below the top of the beam and would stop on either side of the beam. There is also the possibility that the joist channels are fire blocked over the beam. If you have access to the basement side of the interior garage wall you can fish the cable from the new receptacles location to the basement between the straps. Electricians like myself would usually use a 1/4 inch fish tape to do that as they are flexible enough to feed from any sized room and stiff enough to ride right across the upper face of the drywall between the strapping. If you do use the stiffer fish rods make sure the sections are no longer than 6 feet. If the basement side of the interior wall is finished then the problem becomes more challenging.

Question; Is the switch box shown in the photographs on the garage side or the other side of the interior wall?

Question 2; Have you considered using Wiremold or Panduit surface metal raceway to run your wiring. There is no hidden fishing to do and it is fairly simple to put up. It also involves no penetrations of the Fire Resistive Ceiling Assembly.

Do keep in mind that the purpose of that assembly is to give your family time to escape after the smoke detectors begin sounding. That means no holes in that protective envelope around the interior of the garage. Do not install any access hatches in the ceiling unless it is a laboratory listed 3/4 hour or greater fire resistive assembly. If you need to install an access hatch do it on the house side of the Fire Wall.

--
Tom Horne
 
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