A real head scratcher - no power to entire bathroom

[vinny186]

the other day I was adding a GFCI outlet to a friend's bathroom. There is a fan switch on the opposite side of the wall so I decided to tap into it's power. I installed an old work box with the ears, screwed in the GFCI outlet, ran the wires using Romex into the fan switch box. I connected all the whites first but not the ground which was a mistakes but I don't think it would have caused this problem. There were two hot wires screwed together and when I went to attach the GFCI black wire to the two hots, I got a little spark then the lights and all power went out including to the other GFCI in the bathroom.

I checked the electric panel but saw no tripped breaker. I also tested each breaker with a contact tester and they had power. There was one breaker that was off but it had no wire going into it which you'll see in the pic. I talked to an electrician over the phone and sent him relevant pics and he didn't see a problem with the way anything was wired except for the ground. I went through the entire house to check the GFCI's and they all worked. I disconnected the new GFCI and wired everything back to the way it was before but still have no power.

Is there anything else I can do before an electrician has to come out?

 

[havasu]

I'm betting one of two things.
1) You have failed to find an already installed GFCI somewhere else in the house, which is tripped.
2) Did you turn off all the breakers all the way off, then reset them back to on?

 

[vinny186]

I definitely could have missed one, it's a big house with 4 panels and I didn't go outside to check for any. There is one outlet outside the bathroom that has no power but I didn't remove it to check it's condition so that will be my next step along with checking the GFCI's more thoroughly.

I didn't reset all the breakers because it's not my house and the owner wasn't around plus it always seems to create some problem with the computers but if nothing else works this will be my last option before calling in the pros.

Thanks for the advice and I'll update next week.

 

[Blue Jay]

They make a circuit tracer you can plug into an outlet and use the receiver to find a breaker, perhaps you could use it to track outlets on the same circuit working back to the panel checking for power as you go.

 

[afjes_2016]

I didn't reset all the breakers because it's not my house and the owner wasn't around

Vinny you had said this is your friend's place. Assuming your friend owns this place.

If your friend does not own this place/home/apartment and is renting you don't have any right to be working with the electrical system due to liability issues. If your friend does own this place and they gave you permission then fine but there still may be liability issues.

Before you go pulling out anymore receptacles etc you should first look for all GFCIs in the house and press the test button and then the reset button. Again, it does not matter where the GFCI is.
Then after you have found all GFCIs if there is still a problem then you can reset all of the breakers to be sure. Many must be first pushed hard to the "off" position and then back to the "on" position. People don't end up pushing the handle on the breaker hard enough to the "off" position to reset breakers properly.

You also said there are 4 panels. That seems to be a lot of panels although possible for a single family house. Is this a multi unit rental house?

 

[vinny186]

[email protected] <[email protected]>​	1:43 PM (21 minutes ago)
to me

Blue Jay, do you know if that circuit tracer will work if there is no power to the oulet? I know some electricians have a way of overloading an outlet to cause the breaker to trip in order to figure out which breaker controls which outlet. This is done when the panel isn't labeled.

Afjes, the home is owned. It's single family and just happens to be large. Additionally, it has a barn and two separate basements along with a fifth panel that was for one of those small pools in the basement where you can swim against a current but that has been removed.

I'm going back to the house tomorrow so I'll give an update.

 

[Blue Jay]

I beleive the circuit tracer will work on a dead circuit.

 

[Jeff Handy]

You may have fried one or the other of the gfci outlets in the bathroom.
Older gfci outlets would keep working after failure, but would not trip any more during a ground fault.
Newer ones go dead, and they cut off power to their sockets and also to anything wired to take power from them downstream.

Also, the breaker tracer that I have needs the outlet to be hot.

 

[vinny186]

I checked all the gfci's in the house but that didn't change anything so the electrician came out and found a circuit breaker that was jammed somewhere in the middle position. I don't understand why the bathroom had power to begin with considering the faulty breaker but it was replaced and power is back.

 

[Eddie_T]

Somehow your narrative makes it sound like you wired it hot rather than opening the breaker.

 

[afjes_2016]

the other day I was adding a GFCI outlet to a friend's bathroom. There is a fan switch on the opposite side of the wall so I decided to tap into it's power.

Just for future reference in case you are not aware of this. Any time you plan on tapping into a switch to use to power a receptacle make sure prior to doing anything that the switch has a neutral in the box. If it is a switch loop only in that box then there will not be a neutral in the box and you will be SOL after running the cable to the switch box. Just because there is a white wire in a switch box does not mean there it is a neutral. Many DIYers are tripped up by this. If you know this then fine.

so the electrician came out and found a circuit breaker that was jammed somewhere in the middle position

Did the electrician replace that breaker with one rated for the panel? Another thing DIYers don't always know that just because a breaker fits in a panel doesn't mean it is rated for it. You should only use breakers rated for a panel. The panel info label will tell you what breakers may be used for the panel.

 

[vinny186]

Eddie, what do you mean by "opening the breaker?"

Afjes, I read up on switch loops - talk about a head scratcher lol. There were three whites already tied together and then I added one more from the outlet. Are you saying those white wires could have been hot?

The electrician didn't replace the breaker (assuming he didn't have one) but he did reroute the wire to another breaker. I wish I had been there to get some first hand knowledge.

 

[Eddie_T]

Open is off, did you flip the breaker off before you started work? If so it shouldn't have tripped. When a breaker trips the handle may not go all the way to the off position so you have to turn it off and back on. I was wondering if you were working with a hot circuit.

 

[vinny186]

The entire panel was unmarked. Yes, I was definitely working with a hot circuit. If not for the faulty breaker that was jammed in the middle position, the wiring of the gfci would have been uneventful. I think the wiring of the bathroom had been changed over the years so there was no color coordination of the wires in the panel to the hot wires in the bathroom.

 

[afjes_2016]

Eddie, what do you mean by "opening the breaker?"

Afjes, I read up on switch loops - talk about a head scratcher lol. There were three whites already tied together and then I added one more from the outlet. Are you saying those white wires could have been hot?

The electrician didn't replace the breaker (assuming he didn't have one) but he did reroute the wire to another breaker. I wish I had been there to get some first hand knowledge.

As Eddie stated - Open is off. Meaning, when a breaker trips the circuit is then "open" which means no electricity to the circuit. When a breaker is "on" the circuit is closed which means electricity flows to the circuit. Think of a breaker like a light switch. All the light switch does is open the circuit to shut of the power going to the light.

I only mentioned the switch loop as a "heads up" for the next time you go to tap into a switch. Many people are not aware of the fact that there may not be a neutral in a switch box if it is a switch loop only. You don't assume that just because there are white wires in a switch box that they are neutrals and they could be hot even if a group of white tied together. You could have 3 singe pole switches in a switch box being fed as a switch loop with a white wire coming from the light as hot, then pig tailed to other white wires going to each switch as a hot wire and then the black wires going back up to each light as a hot wire. In that case you will have a bundle of white wires being used as hot wires but still no neutral in the switch box. You have to evaluate the situation before you just assume because you see white wires that they are neutrals. The whit wires being used as hot in this case would be marked at the ends with black tape or marker indicating they are hot, but not everyone does that.

Yes, using an existing available breaker in the panel is fine to reroute the circuit that is assuming the breaker in the panel is the proper breaker. Again, I was just stating that some people assume that if a breaker fits a panel that the breaker is ok to use in that panel which is not the case.

 

[Jeff Handy]

Just for future reference in case you are not aware of this. Any time you plan on tapping into a switch to use to power a receptacle make sure prior to doing anything that the switch has a neutral in the box. If it is a switch loop only in that box then there will not be a neutral in the box and you will be SOL after running the cable to the switch box. Just because there is a white wire in a switch box does not mean there it is a neutral. Many DIYers are tripped up by this. If you know this then fine.


Did the electrician replace that breaker with one rated for the panel? Another thing DIYers don't always know that just because a breaker fits in a panel doesn't mean it is rated for it. You should only use breakers rated for a panel. The panel info label will tell you what breakers may be used for the panel.

If the white wire of a cable is used as part of a switch loop, there should be black tape wrapped around the last few inches nearest the connection inside the box.
To alert everyone that it is hot, or will be hot when the switch is closed.
Oops, looks like afjes already covered this!