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afjes_2016
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A picture of your panel does help to some degree but the most important thing we need to know is the total load of the panel presently. No, you don't add up the breakers to determine that. A load calculation is usually done to determine that.
I see you have 100amp service. Only one 30 2 pole breaker and the rest 15 and 20amp breakers.
what is the 30amp breaker for? I guess most of your home uses gas and not electric such as your stove/range, hot wter heater, etc.
The EV charger may be a 50amp circuit.
It seems you may have room for a 50amp 2 pole breaker in the panel.
I am assuming this is your main panel and you don't have a sub panel anywhere.
A bit more information please would help us help you better.
I see you have 100amp service. Only one 30 2 pole breaker and the rest 15 and 20amp breakers.
what is the 30amp breaker for? I guess most of your home uses gas and not electric such as your stove/range, hot wter heater, etc.
The EV charger may be a 50amp circuit.
It seems you may have room for a 50amp 2 pole breaker in the panel.
I am assuming this is your main panel and you don't have a sub panel anywhere.
A bit more information please would help us help you better.
Thank you for your reply. Yes, I do have a gas range and a gas water heater. 30 amp breaker is for AC condenser. I do not have a lot of high loads ( as far as I know) the most load is for the electric kettle and microwave and fridge
The most obvious way is to add a sub-panel or replace the current one, but I am on a budget ( duh, who currently is not
) The top right corner for some reason will not accept breakers ( there is no nutch ) and on the outside of the panel wording " Do not remove this KO" covered exactly those two spots. I probably can install another double breaker to free up an additional slot for two 20 amps, but there are already so many double breakers so I'm not sure if it's safe?
I have a hybrid car, So it does not need 50 amps it takes 16 amps at 240 volts to charge
Thank you in advance for your inputs
There are three single breakers one on the left side and 2 on the right side that could be replaced with tandem breakers that will have two circuits in one slot. That would free up space for your EV circuit without installing a new panel. The EV circuit needs to be a GFCI. I installed a 50amp EV circuit into my garage for a future EV as I was finishing my basement. Given that your main electric load given all the gas appliances is AC, you're probably OK adding a EV circuit to your 100 amp load center. Charge the car at night when things cool off and the rest of the load is low.
afjes_2016
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Is this the only panel in your home?
It seems that this panel has several diff brands of breakers in it.
First thing I would do is check to be sure that those breakers are rated for that panel.
Can you find the sticker in the panel box that gives the brand and model of that panel?
Be careful, just because a breaker will fit in a panel does not mean it is rated for it and could cause an issue in the future in the way of safety.
Sure it's just the angle of the pic, but where is the ground bar in that panel!? I'm with @afjes_2016, does appear there should be a bunch of "clean up" done before attempting to add that circuit...
Yes, it is only one panel.
The only sticker is can see is already on the picture " Underwriters Laboratories Inc Class CTL Enclosed Panelboard No {something here 1 of 2 symbols} 362008" I thought i had a different angle for the sticker, I will post it later today once I get home. How or where can I see what breakers are rated for this panel?
I am PRO safety and want to make sure that I do everything as needed to be done ( except calling license electrical as they charge arm and leg, obviously for a reason, but it is out of my budget for now)
There is no separate ground bar. It appears as the bare copper wire coming from the Right lower part and connected directly to the bass bar with all white wires.
Thank you
Will need to confirm with a few of the "Sparkys" here but, if it were me, I would be doing a panel upgrade at this point.
At the very least, the new (240v/20A) circuit will need to be grounded. May be able to sneak it in if the service panel (shown) is the first disconnect but if there is one (disconnect) out at the meter (or before that panel) you'll need a separate ground.
Around here we have a main panel that is part of the meter base. At my house it has my compressors for the AC units located within feet of the meter, my newly added basement sub panel, my builder installed sub panel in the garage for my branch circuits, a newly added EV circuit, and the range outlet. Everything else is powered off of one of the sub panels. In the subs the grounds and neutrals are on separate busses and the neutral buss is not bonded to the panel enclosure. If this is the only panel, and the 2 pole breaker is the main having the neutrals and grounds bound together would be normal. If there is a panel that is part of the meter than they should be separated.
That all said, if I was the electrician that installed this panel I would not sign my work. It is pretty sloppy. Given the supply comes into a breaker, I'm inclined to think it does not have a main breaker at the meter. If there was a main, the feed would go directly to the two hot busses that the breakers plug into without going through a breaker.
Ok there is a picture of the panel with the model. I spoke with a few electricians one told me that yes breakers are different and needed to be replaced as it is a code violation. He gave me a quote for replacing all incorrect breakers, adding a ground bar, adding the required circuit and adding 1 20 amp gfci breaker for the dishwasher( this was my other project) circuit, and possibly adding a ground rod for 850 or upgrading the whole panel for 1550. I am in 10306 zip code. Dose those prices sound reasonable?
Another electrician will come tomorrow to look at the panel and give me an estimate.
Another electrician will come tomorrow to look at the panel and give me an estimate.
I am no expert, but all panels that I see around here do have main wires connected to the breakers and not directly to the panel.
This house was build in 1994 and it was "builder's special" so i am not surprised.
afjes_2016
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Star1K:
Good I'm glad to hear you are making arrangements to bring the panel up to code and get rid of the breakers that don't belong in there. First good step!!
Get estimates from several electricians as you are doing and let them give you an itemized list of what work they will do. The price seems reasonable but different parts of the country demand diff prices. Don't go with the cheapest estimate go with the one that gives you a good undeerstanding of what is going to be done and why. Let the electrician educate you as to what work he will do and why. I always did this with my customers.
I believe I see a bare copper ground wire connected to the upper right portion of the panel.
Be sure the neutral bar is bonded to the panel. Be sure that the neutral wires are only ONE per hole.
I don't think a panel replacement or upgrade is necessary here. Unless the electrician finds that some of those tandems can't be use. Buy tandems rated for the panel if tandems can be used in the panel.
If you run out of breaker spaces the electrician can add a sub panel to this panel and you can move some of the circuits to the sub panel if needed and you can run the EV circuit from the sub panel. At this point your main concerns are replacing those breakers and making room for the EV circuit. Most of your appliances are gas so I don't see a need for an upgrade in service so far. That panel looks in pretty good shape otherwise.
Good I'm glad to hear you are making arrangements to bring the panel up to code and get rid of the breakers that don't belong in there. First good step!!
Get estimates from several electricians as you are doing and let them give you an itemized list of what work they will do. The price seems reasonable but different parts of the country demand diff prices. Don't go with the cheapest estimate go with the one that gives you a good undeerstanding of what is going to be done and why. Let the electrician educate you as to what work he will do and why. I always did this with my customers.
I believe I see a bare copper ground wire connected to the upper right portion of the panel.
Be sure the neutral bar is bonded to the panel. Be sure that the neutral wires are only ONE per hole.
I don't think a panel replacement or upgrade is necessary here. Unless the electrician finds that some of those tandems can't be use. Buy tandems rated for the panel if tandems can be used in the panel.
If you run out of breaker spaces the electrician can add a sub panel to this panel and you can move some of the circuits to the sub panel if needed and you can run the EV circuit from the sub panel. At this point your main concerns are replacing those breakers and making room for the EV circuit. Most of your appliances are gas so I don't see a need for an upgrade in service so far. That panel looks in pretty good shape otherwise.
I installed a brand new sub panel in my basement. The mains are connected directly to the buss and not to a breaker. The breaker is back at the main panel, it is a dedicated 100amp breaker for this sub panel. The breaker's job is to protect the wire, so it is at my main panel. If you don't have a panel before this panel, the only place the breaker could be is in this panel. In my case installing a second breaker at the sub would be redundant and serve no purpose. The main connection is at the top of the panel. When the inspector came he took one look inside the panel and could see I knew what I was doing and really didn't closely inspect any of the branch circuits to make sure I tied the grounds for the rough inspection.
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Double check but I believe Challenger service panels were recalled back in the 90's!
afjes_2016
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Sparky617:
You have dual function AFCI/GFCI breakers in that panel you show in post #16.
I don't see the coils of neutral wire from the breaker to the neutral bar so I would assume they are plug-on neutral breakers. Something is telling me that the panel is not a plug-on neutral panel though. I could be wrong but I am wondering.
You have dual function AFCI/GFCI breakers in that panel you show in post #16.
I don't see the coils of neutral wire from the breaker to the neutral bar so I would assume they are plug-on neutral breakers. Something is telling me that the panel is not a plug-on neutral panel though. I could be wrong but I am wondering.
I think the pros are giving you some great advice here. I will offer a few thoughts on how I would decide that maybe you haven’t thought of.
First off do you have plans to stay in this home for a long time or is the plan this is a starter house and you will be moving up in a few years?
Do you plan on having a hybrid plug-in for long term or will you at some point want full electric?
Is your garage area also a place where you may someday want more power for a workshop or any such things?
Do you at any point plan on expanding on your home?
I heard yesterday the feds are planning on eliminating gas stoves in the kitchen and making electric the only replacement option. Gas water heaters will likely be the next to go with this push to all electric and stopping fossil fuels. I’m not agreeing with it just saying it is happening. Also at least around here the grid is not as dependable as it used to be and I’m seriously looking at some sort of back up power and provisions for a bridge type switch etc.
Depending on a lot of the above if it were me and it wasn’t a short term home I would make the investment into a larger panel and service even. If the panel is an odd discontinued brand that’s even more reason to bite the bullet.
I understand money doesn’t grow on trees and if you need to get it done as cheap as possible for now then put in the double breakers and get going. I would size the wire of the new run for what I might need in the future.
