Balloon Framing

[Caghca2010]

I am wanting to open up a wall on a balloon framed 2 story home. The opening is the houses original exterior wall, before an addition. The wall runs parallel with the joists. My problem is, there is a perpendicular wall that would shorten the whaler support. My question is, could I use the upper joist for whaler support? Or should I do the whaler support on the second floor. Also, doing the support on the second level would make it so the opening is higher, correct? I am wanting to open up from the perpendicular wall all the way to the right. About 7.5 ft. Attached sketchup picture is what it looks like now with the upper 2x10 being the joist, and what I started to play around with the whaler support. Should I stick with the support as is now and just have a thinner opening, or would it be safe to use the joist for the whaler support, or safe to make the support on the second floor? In the picture I took, it seems the joists are perpendicular, they are not. That was someone too lazy to remove previous ceiling and instead built up new support for wood paneling. Also, as of now there is no header for the existing door, anyone have any comments on that?

 

[nealtw]

I am wanting to open up a wall on a balloon framed 2 story home. The opening is the houses original exterior wall, before an addition. The wall runs parallel with the joists. My problem is, there is a perpendicular wall that would shorten the whaler support. My question is, could I use the upper joist for whaler support? Or should I do the whaler support on the second floor. Also, doing the support on the second level would make it so the opening is higher, correct? I am wanting to open up from the perpendicular wall all the way to the right. About 7.5 ft. Attached sketchup picture is what it looks like now with the upper 2x10 being the joist, and what I started to play around with the whaler support. Should I stick with the support as is now and just have a thinner opening, or would it be safe to use the joist for the whaler support, or safe to make the support on the second floor? In the picture I took, it seems the joists are perpendicular, they are not. That was someone too lazy to remove previous ceiling and instead built up new support for wood paneling. Also, as of now there is no header for the existing door, anyone have any comments on that?View attachment 21579 View attachment 21580

What is holding up the ceiling above the window in the next room, can we see a picture from that room.

 

[Caghca2010]

What is holding up the ceiling above the window in the next room, can we see a picture from that room.

I can get more pictures in just a moment, that window is inside the addition. Just a one story, platform framed appx 7'x8' 'breakfast nook'. Attaching a pic of the door way to the breakfast nook. That door way is what used to be the exterior wall running parallel with the joist. Which is what i'm wanting to widen. The window in that room is part of the one story add on

 

[Caghca2010]

What is holding up the ceiling above the window in the next room, can we see a picture from that room.

Ok, so here are some more pictures. That new looking wood, that I have black marking through, is not part of the frame, that is support I made to fix some ceiling joists. Also, the breakfast nook add on is just nailed into the old siding of the house. That isn't right either is it?

 

[nealtw]

The joy of balloon framing, Just a few thoughts.
Ant change of the load going to the foundation can put the foundation into question.
Any change of load in the house has to be supported to the foundation.

If this is the wall that you want to remove, I would temp support this ceiling with a temp wall.
Leave the corner stud and cut the rest of the studs just below that ledger for 2 2x10s for a header and add 2 more jack studs on each end and they have to be supported down to the foundation with blocking or what ever it takes.

 

[nealtw]

Support these joists while you work on the wall , You can add 2x4s from the side of the joist up the rafter against the wall.
These joists are going the wrong way so above them there should be a 2x4 going right across to hold the outside walls from splaying out.

 

[Caghca2010]

The joy of balloon framing, Just a few thoughts.
Ant change of the load going to the foundation can put the foundation into question.
Any change of load in the house has to be supported to the foundation.

If this is the wall that you want to remove, I would temp support this ceiling with a temp wall.
Leave the corner stud and cut the rest of the studs just below that ledger for 2 2x10s for a header and add 2 more jack studs on each end and they have to be supported down to the foundation with blocking or what ever it takes.

Wouldn't I need to provide support to these studs by bracing a 2x to the studs since they go all the way up two stories, and when I cut them will pretty much be dangling there? The joists runs parallel to this wall, and are only simply nailed to the studs. Called whaler support, as described in here https://www.doityourself.com/forum/...flooring/258077-balloon-framing-question.html

 

[Caghca2010]

Support these joists while you work on the wall , You can add 2x4s from the side of the joist up the rafter against the wall.
These joists are going the wrong way so above them there should be a 2x4 going right across to hold the outside walls from splaying out.

Oh yeah, whoever built this add on did it all wrong. Its simply nailed into the old siding, nothing behind that siding that the joist are nailed into. I mean there are studs, but nothing else and the joists only make contact with the siding.

 

[nealtw]

Wouldn't I need to provide support to these studs by bracing a 2x to the studs since they go all the way up two stories, and when I cut them will pretty much be dangling there? The joists runs parallel to this wall, and are only simply nailed to the studs. Called whaler support, as described in here https://www.doityourself.com/forum/...flooring/258077-balloon-framing-question.html

The floor above and the ceiling above both have ledgers nailed to the studs so the temp wall to the ceiling will hold the wall. You may want to look at how the floor is constructed. It may need some temp support too while you do it.
The sheeting and the siding on the other side of that wall is horizontal so it would take time for things to sag, the temp wall is insurance.

 

[Caghca2010]

The floor above and the ceiling above both have ledgers nailed to the studs so the temp wall to the ceiling will hold the wall. You may want to look at how the floor is constructed. It may need some temp support too while you do it.
The sheeting and the siding on the other side of that wall is horizontal so it would take time for things to sag, the temp wall is insurance.

I don't mean to question you, just want to be absolutely sure. I thought I read somewhere that the ledgers are perpendicular, and that walls that are parallel are only nailed directly to the stud. Kind of like this picture

I am in no rush doing this and will only do it when I am confident about it. I will be checking the floor out and provide necessary support.

 

[bud16415]

I don’t know if I can offer much help but I have lived in balloon framed homes my whole adult life and have extensively rebuilt both and worked on quite a few more. I will say no two are done alike IMO and each carpenter that built one had his own ideas and local methods to go along with local materials. What they lacked in a uniform building method they made up for with size and amount of materials used.


It’s very hard to look at photos and get the whole picture and I’m pretty sure you are like me and want to figure it out on your own, but sometimes it’s a good idea to hire a pro just for the engineering part of it for an opinion. I know seasoned builders even do this.


In short though having opened so many walls in these old places to find someone chopped out studs or joists and did nothing to carry load and got away with it they are pretty sound structures for the most part to start with.


Any openings I have made or enlarged I have always done as Neal suggests if it is more than one or two studs and build a temp wall. Then added a header and put back in at least the same number I removed on each end of the header and most of the time one extra.

Of course follow that line down thru the building until you hit a foundation or giant rim beam on the foundation.


The ceiling joists shown attached to the siding look like they are just there to hold a ceiling and the rafters are taking all the roof load. That’s how they got away with doing that. Unless I’m not seeing something.


Lastly the building will give you clues what’s under heavy load and what isn’t. If you are cutting something and you get a blade pinch or hear a cracking or creaking stop. I can sometimes tell by banging on a stud after the wall is open and looking at gaps and such what is taking lots of weight.


Wish I had more specifics for you. Welcome to the forum.

 

[nealtw]

I don't mean to question you, just want to be absolutely sure. I thought I read somewhere that the ledgers are perpendicular, and that walls that are parallel are only nailed directly to the stud. Kind of like this picture View attachment 21590

I am in no rush doing this and will only do it when I am confident about it. I will be checking the floor out and provide necessary support.

The floor upstairs is nailed to that wall, that will carry most of the load, Like Bud said these things stay together really good.
If I was doing it, I would start with the four jack studs and make sure they are supported to the ground and then flip a coin about building the temp wall. Either way I would want the header in place in about 1/2 hour after cutting studs. Like I said the wall is insurance and I am not telling you to do it with out that wall. The 2x10s can go in one at a time but the get nailed 3 or 4 nails 16" OC . We usually would just add a 2x4 flat below that for drywall
Or you can add to the header to make it match the thickness of the wall . Don't put anything between the 2x10s.