Bathroom light/fan/heater combo unit question

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Benaford

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Hoping to get some feedback from the community here. I have an older (1987) home with the original Broan light/fan/heater combo unit in the ceiling. I'd like to add better lighting and then put in a different exhaust fan unit that is just a fan, no light or heater.

I took a peak in the attic and this is what the unit looks like:
Fan Box.png

Here's the wiring behind the three switch wall plate:
image0.jpeg

Seems like it should be pretty simple job. I just want to keep the fan on the same switch, move the light outside of the fan unit and just get rid of the heater function. (That switch will be dead.) How can I go about doing this since the circuit for the lights is currently integrated into the fan unit?

TIA -
 
Hi Beneford,
Broan has a bunch of retrofit kits that pop into the existing fan box. Maybe one of those will solve some problems for you. NuTone kits also fit most Broan. (Broan is the owner of NuTone.)

From viewing the photo, it looks like you have 3-wire NM cable from the switch box to the fan.
I might be viewing the photo wrong. The photo looks like power enters the switch box from the blue wire and goes to all 3 switches. A 3-wire cable then goes up to the fan enclosure in a 3-conductor NM cable. (2 Line Side, Common Neutral, Common Ground)
Based On That:

A) After locking power off, to install the light away from the fan, remove the existing 3-wire NM cable from the fan enclosure in the attic.

B) Install a 4" square junction box nearby.

C) Move the 3-wire NM cable to that box.

D) In the new box, attach new NM cable (2 wire, plus ground) to the wire that comes from the switch that you want to use for the fan motor. Attach the new NM cable's neutral to the common neutral that is in the existing 3-conductor cable. Send that new wire to the existing fan enclosure and connect to the fan.

E) In the new box, do like you did in Step D, but use the switch you want for the light and send a new NM cable to the new light.

F) Cap off any unused wires.

Again, this is based on viewing the photo. I could be way wrong.

If I'm viewing the photo incorrectly, perhaps draw a sketch of what wire and what switch does what. Of importance is where the power from the load center goes. Maybe I, or someone else here, can help better.

Paul
 
Hoping to get some feedback from the community here. I have an older (1987) home with the original Broan light/fan/heater combo unit in the ceiling. I'd like to add better lighting and then put in a different exhaust fan unit that is just a fan, no light or heater.

I took a peak in the attic and this is what the unit looks like:
View attachment 33698

Here's the wiring behind the three switch wall plate:
View attachment 33700

Seems like it should be pretty simple job. I just want to keep the fan on the same switch, move the light outside of the fan unit and just get rid of the heater function. (That switch will be dead.) How can I go about doing this since the circuit for the lights is currently integrated into the fan unit?

TIA -
In the photo there is a black conductor, with a striped end, that is disconnected. Where was it connected.
 
That's a good question. I noticed that rogue wire and I'm not sure what it should be connected to.
In the switch box photo, it looks like the dead-ended black wire is in the blue jacketed NM cable. In the fan enclosure photo, I can see what looks like a blue jacketed NM cable entering.

Can you see inside the fan enclosure to find out if that is the black wire of interest? (First, be certain that it is de-energized at both ends.) For Broan, there is usually a triangle shaped piece of metal in a corner. Pull the sides of the box a little and the triangle cover will come off. Wires are under the triangle cover.

Next, to confirm you may have to use an Ohm meter. Test from the black wire to ground. If "Infinity" Ohms, connect the wire to a ground. Go to the fan box. Test the black wire from the blue jacketed cable there. If it shows continuity to ground, go back to the switch box and disconnect the mystery black wire from ground. Go back to the fan box and test to ground. If you now show no continuity (Infinity Ohms), both ends are the same wire.

If you have a helper, it is easier to test. In the fan box, connect your Ohm meter across the unknown black wire and a good ground. Have the helper touch the switch box end to a good ground. Your meter should now show low Ohms. Have the helper remove the wire from ground. You should now be back at Infinity Ohms.

Once you have identified the bkack wire, the next job is to figure out what it is supposed to be doing- if anything.
There's a chance that once there was a simple fan and someone changed to the fan-heater-light combination. Needing additional conductors, they abandoned the blue jacketed NM cable. (But forgot to cap the black and disconnect & cap the white.)
 
Well, there exists another possibility; In the switch box photo, it appears that the white conductor from the 3+grnd romex is used as a switch leg from the switch on the right, so the white conductor from the blue romex, seen in the attic photo, is the neutral, for the circuit, leaving the uncapped black conductor unnecessary.

Hopefully the OP will return.
 
Thanks for all the feedback. I'll definitely use these suggestions to start working out the new schematic for the bathroom. Unfortunately, my dishwasher just went kaput and I've had to direct my time towards getting that fixed. Hopefully, I'll get back to my bathroom project this weekend.

Thanks again -
 
I still haven't gotten up to the attic to look inside the box, but I think I figured out what is doing what. Snoonyb is right - the white romex is being used for switches - the blue romex is just used for a common wire.

Image (3).jpg

I bought a new fan switch with integrated timer for this job, and I attempted to swap it in. However, no matter what I try, I can't get it to function correctly. If possible, would someone be willing to draw a rough diagram using the labeled wires in the picture?

Here's the switch I purchased:

1732241997423.png

Link

Thanks again -
 
Assuming, yet without confirmation of the ceiling fixture wiring, From the switch; black too #7, red too #3 & white too #5/6, and the green to grnd.
 
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When you get a chance, perhaps upload the instructions for the switch, or a link to them on line. Failing that, make and model number will help.
 
When you get a chance, perhaps upload the instructions for the switch, or a link to them on line. Failing that, make and model number will help.
The product is; Homewerks 7150-11

There is a note in the AMAZON listing that the product is frequently returned, so the failure may be with the product, not the installation.
 
Side Note-
If you will use any of your white wires as not neutral, color all of the exposed wire at both ends so that no one gets confused & injured.
Felt tipped markers work well. Blue, black, red, yellow, purple, etc. Anything except white, grey or green.



Also, when you buy import switches from places like Amazon or eBay, be sure to research the UL or ETL listing number.
It's amazing how many things people have shown me with testing agency numbers & stickers that are fake. Once someone showed me a switch and a motor that both had the same UL listing number. Searching the number showed it was not a valid number. If the device is marked UR, it is only listed as a component of another listed device.

Make certain that the number description is for the complete device and not for a single component inside the device. Make sure the listing states "Listed" and not "Recognized" or "Recognized Component". (ETL also uses "Certified" which is a step above listed.)

UL: https://iq2.ulprospector.com/session/new?redirect=http://iq.ulprospector.com/en/ (Registration is free)
ETL: https://www.intertek.com/product-certification-marks/etl/
 
Last edited:
Side Note-
If you will use any of your white wires as not neutral, color all of the exposed wire at both ends so that no one gets confused & injured.
Felt tipped markers work well. Blue, black, red, yellow, purple, etc. Anything except white, grey or green.



Also, when you buy import switches from places like Amazon or eBay, be sure to research the UL or ETL listing number.
It's amazing how many things people have shown me with testing agency numbers & stickers that are fake. Once someone showed me a switch and a motor that both had the same UL listing number. Searching the number showed it was not a valid number. If the device is marked UR, it is only listed as a component of another listed device.

Make certain that the number description is for the complete device and not for a single component inside the device. Make sure the listing states "Listed" and not "Recognized" or "Recognized Component". (ETL also uses "Certified" which is a step above listed.)

UL: https://iq2.ulprospector.com/session/new?redirect=http://iq.ulprospector.com/en/ (Registration is free)
ETL: https://www.intertek.com/product-certification-marks/etl/
Big thanks. That is all really good to know. Not my area of expertise, so thank you for helping me stay safe. Can you recommend one that might have a better quality build? All I really need is a timer switch so my kids don't leave the vent fan on endlessly. I've read some articles about it being a possible fire risk if these fans are left on too long.
 
Big thanks. That is all really good to know. Not my area of expertise, so thank you for helping me stay safe. Can you recommend one that might have a better quality build? All I really need is a timer switch so my kids don't leave the vent fan on endlessly. I've read some articles about it being a possible fire risk if these fans are left on too long.
Timer specific, I don't deal with often. When I do, it's something specified on the print call-out sheets. But brand wise, some brands' products are good-

Honeywell Home series has a fan timer that I've used in person. It was at a manufacturer's demonstration. They had one being torture tested in a steam box. The thing lived. It's pretty convenient. Like many digital, you can program how long you want it to run and all the user has to do is push a button to start the countdown.

In addition, you can program it to run for a certain amount of time at a particular time of day. So if a forgetful kid takes a shower at a certain time each day, you can have the timer turn on buy itself. It's got a clock and a backlight that's adjustable to 3 levels of brightness.
I can't remember the model number, but the one at the link following looks like it: https://www.honeywellhome.com/us/en.../digital-bath-fan-control-hvc0001-u/#features Cost = ??? (Don't have to buy through an installer as is alluded to on the web page. They are in some stores and on line.)


The below concerns experience with lighting controls. I assume fan controls will have the same reliability results in each brand.
Lutron makes several fan timer models. The brand is typically reliable & priced well. Their Maestro series tends to have more features. I've installed many of their commercial lighting controls and products and don't remember problems.

Pass & Seymour Legrand makes very reliable controls. The selection is limited, but the products work forever. Cooper is one of their many brands. Same reliability.

Broan-NuTone makes one or two fan controls. I don't know who makes them for Broan, but Broan is good about warranty.

To Avoid-
I'd skip anything Leviton- especially electronics. Problems, problems, problems.
Certainly skip anything electrical with an unknown brand name. Electrical is scary when things go wrong, so you absolutely are advised to buy from reputable brand names.



Where To Buy-
Electrical supply houses sell only legitimate products. If you go to the parts counter instead of the showroom, the price is much lower.
I've noticed fan timers in plumbing/heating wholesale counter displays, too.

Supply House Com is a reputable on-line place to buy electrical. They don't have a huge selection, but are honest. Sometimes the price is low, too. For fan timers, I haven't an idea of who they sell.

Grainger and McMaster-Carr are legitimate. Costly, but legitimate

Zoro is legitimate. (It's owned by Grainger and is the lower priced outlet.) Drill Spot is also Grainger owned, but more expensive.

Mom-and-Pop hardware stores, plus the national chains are legitimate sellers of safe items.

Items sold on Amazon sold by Amazon or by the manufacturer is probably legitimate, as probably is Walmart sold by Walmart. (Not 3rd party vendors) IF the manufacturer is a recognized & established brand.




Where Not To Buy-
eBay, Bonanza and Amazon 3rd party sellers, plus Walmart 3rd party sellers sometimes sell fakes with brand names. Temu is loaded with fake clones.

I'd avoid buying at a home center like Lowes and Home Depot. Customers return things as defective and they go back on the shelf. I bought a dimmer at Home Depot once when I was in a rush at night. I opened the box and inside was a note saying "This is broken. Did Home Depot put it back on the shelf?". At Home Depot & Lowes, I've picked up lots of broken things of all sorts or things missing parts.

Another Lowes mention is that I returned a bad electric drill. On the box, I wrote DEFECTIVE in black magic marker. I told the returns guy. While I was picking out a replacement, the same returns guy put my broken drill back on the shelf- with a white sticker over where I wrote "DEFECTIVE". I took it to the counter and gave it to the manager and explained. Bam! Back on the shelf again!




Not specifically fan timer related, but good to know:
A friend whose father owns several factories in Shenzhen, China said they make brand name stuff for real companies, then run off a bunch of extra to sell to vendors on the side (side runs). Some have the real company's name and some have names & colors chosen by the vendor.

There's a problem if the real brand name on a side run tool needs warranty work. The serial number won't show up on the manufacturer's system when you make a warranty claim. Power tools are a favorite crook item. It happened to me once on an eBay "new in box" "authorized seller" Bosch saw that was out of stock elsewhere. Looked real. Price was the same stores. But it was a side run, thus no warranty repair. Oops!
 
Timer specific, I don't deal with often. When I do, it's something specified on the print call-out sheets. But brand wise, some brands' products are good-

Honeywell Home series has a fan timer that I've used in person. It was at a manufacturer's demonstration. They had one being torture tested in a steam box. The thing lived. It's pretty convenient. Like many digital, you can program how long you want it to run and all the user has to do is push a button to start the countdown.

In addition, you can program it to run for a certain amount of time at a particular time of day. So if a forgetful kid takes a shower at a certain time each day, you can have the timer turn on buy itself. It's got a clock and a backlight that's adjustable to 3 levels of brightness.
I can't remember the model number, but the one at the link following looks like it: https://www.honeywellhome.com/us/en.../digital-bath-fan-control-hvc0001-u/#features Cost = ??? (Don't have to buy through an installer as is alluded to on the web page. They are in some stores and on line.)


The below concerns experience with lighting controls. I assume fan controls will have the same reliability results in each brand.
Lutron makes several fan timer models. The brand is typically reliable & priced well. Their Maestro series tends to have more features. I've installed many of their commercial lighting controls and products and don't remember problems.

Pass & Seymour Legrand makes very reliable controls. The selection is limited, but the products work forever. Cooper is one of their many brands. Same reliability.

Broan-NuTone makes one or two fan controls. I don't know who makes them for Broan, but Broan is good about warranty.

To Avoid-
I'd skip anything Leviton- especially electronics. Problems, problems, problems.
Certainly skip anything electrical with an unknown brand name. Electrical is scary when things go wrong, so you absolutely are advised to buy from reputable brand names.



Where To Buy-
Electrical supply houses sell only legitimate products. If you go to the parts counter instead of the showroom, the price is much lower.
I've noticed fan timers in plumbing/heating wholesale counter displays, too.

Supply House Com is a reputable on-line place to buy electrical. They don't have a huge selection, but are honest. Sometimes the price is low, too. For fan timers, I haven't an idea of who they sell.

Grainger and McMaster-Carr are legitimate. Costly, but legitimate

Zoro is legitimate. (It's owned by Grainger and is the lower priced outlet.) Drill Spot is also Grainger owned, but more expensive.

Mom-and-Pop hardware stores, plus the national chains are legitimate sellers of safe items.

Items sold on Amazon sold by Amazon or by the manufacturer is probably legitimate, as probably is Walmart sold by Walmart. (Not 3rd party vendors) IF the manufacturer is a recognized & established brand.




Where Not To Buy-
eBay, Bonanza and Amazon 3rd party sellers, plus Walmart 3rd party sellers sometimes sell fakes with brand names. Temu is loaded with fake clones.

I'd avoid buying at a home center like Lowes and Home Depot. Customers return things as defective and they go back on the shelf. I bought a dimmer at Home Depot once when I was in a rush at night. I opened the box and inside was a note saying "This is broken. Did Home Depot put it back on the shelf?". At Home Depot & Lowes, I've picked up lots of broken things of all sorts or things missing parts.

Another Lowes mention is that I returned a bad electric drill. On the box, I wrote DEFECTIVE in black magic marker. I told the returns guy. While I was picking out a replacement, the same returns guy put my broken drill back on the shelf- with a white sticker over where I wrote "DEFECTIVE". I took it to the counter and gave it to the manager and explained. Bam! Back on the shelf again!




Not specifically fan timer related, but good to know:
A friend whose father owns several factories in Shenzhen, China said they make brand name stuff for real companies, then run off a bunch of extra to sell to vendors on the side (side runs). Some have the real company's name and some have names & colors chosen by the vendor.

There's a problem if the real brand name on a side run tool needs warranty work. The serial number won't show up on the manufacturer's system when you make a warranty claim. Power tools are a favorite crook item. It happened to me once on an eBay "new in box" "authorized seller" Bosch saw that was out of stock elsewhere. Looked real. Price was the same stores. But it was a side run, thus no warranty repair. Oops!
Wild stuff. Thanks for the recommendation. I've decided to go with an Eaton switch from Lowe's - it's the best option I have available nearby.

Here's a link to the unit I bought. It feels significantly less cheaply made if that makes any sense. The wires are a heavier gauge and he unit itself feels more sturdy.
1732379878322.png
Now that I have a capable switch for the fan, can you help me understand how to wire this up so that the light and fan operate independently? Here's a rough diagram that I put together:

1732381218502.png

Thank you -
 
That's a nice choice of timers that you made, Benaford!
Eaton Cutler Hammer makes excellent products. Even though they are my default brand for load centers, panelboards and switch gear for up to 600 volts, it slipped my mind that they also make residential switches & timers. Sorry for the goof!

The propaganda sheets state what lighting it can be used on and don't mention fan motors. But part way down the spec sheet it shows 1/4 HP motor loads are OK. (Many lighting timers can not be successfully used on motor loads. The waveform gets changed.)

HOW TO:
Assuming the Eaton timer is for the fan and a separate switch is for the light:
FIRST-
Check the instructions to verify that the Eaton Timer's black wire in Line and red is load. (The usual)
Assuming the above black/red is correct, below AND you are using the fan box's existing motor and light, here are two ways:

SIMPLIFYING-
If #6 is indeed the neutral from the circuit, connect it to your #2 wire. It STAYS WHITE.
Connect the fan box end of your #2 to the light fixture neutral terminal and to the fan motor's neutral terminal. You may need to add a wire connector and jumpers if they don't already exist in the fan box.

Connect your #7 (incoming from the circuit) to a wire connector (such as wire nut or Waygo WalNut) and add two 6" jumper wires:
One jumper goes to the black wire on the Eaton Timer (Again, check the instructions for black/red assignments)
The other jumper wire connects to the line side of the light switch (tradition says the top screw on a
standard snap switch)

Connect your #1 wire to the Eaton Timer's red wire (Again, check the instructions for black/red assignments)
Connect the other end to the fan motor line side wire

Connect your #3 to the light switch load side (traditionally the bottom screw for a snap switch)
Connect the other end to the light fixture's line side terminal (the brass colored one)

Cap in the fan box any wires to the heater that you will no longer use.

Cap the conductors in the blue jacketed NM cable at both ends. Leave the ground wire connected as-is.
Tag both ends indicating where the other end is located. (Example: In the switch box, tag it "Dead ends in fan box. In the
fan box, tag it "Dead ends in bathroom wall switch box", or similar words that you'll understand later.


USING THE BLUE AND THE WHITE JACKETED NM CABLES-
Leave your #5/#6 Neutral pair as they are in the photo. (Assumes #6 comes from the circuit and #5 goes to the fan/light box)

Connect the other end of #5 in the fan box to the fan motor and to the light. (They probably already are connected as such)

Connect #7 (always hot from the circuit breaker) to the black wire of the Eaton timer and to the light switch
(Again, check the instructions for black/red assignments)

Connect #3 (the one to the existing fan) to the Red wire on the Eaton control
(Again, check the instructions for black/red assignments)

Connect #4 to the line side of the light switch. Leave the other end on the light fixture.

Cap in the fan box any wires to the heater that you will no longer use.

NOTES
From reading, the switch box will now only have two devices (timer and light switch). You will need a wall plate for a 3-gang box with two devices. (One device is blanked off. Usually an end one. Sometimes I've found ones with the center blanked)
That extra space might be useful for a thermostat (line voltage) for floor heating cables if you're up to a project. Some can go under the floor if accessible, like a basement. It may also be useful for a thermostat for an in-wall heater- or even a ceiling or vanity light.



If the wiring is still confusing, post some photos or a drawing of the wiring inside the fan box.

If the light will be outside of the fan box, have no worries. The blue jacketed NM cable will be handy to have. If that's the case, post back & I'll try to help.

Paul
 
In your OP, you indicated that you wished to separate the light from the existing ceiling fixture, and upgrade it, and with just the fan function remaining active in the ceiling fixture.

If that is still the case, then, following in the method outlined in POST #2, B & C. However, rather than cutting that 3 + grnd NM, I'd disconnect and remove it from the ceiling fixture and insert it into the 4" box, WHY, because it's recommended, as well as common practice, to have 6" of conductor at termination points. The blue 2 + grnd, whose white conductor is presently being used as the neutral, can likely also be salvaged and employed as the fan conductors, from the 4" box.

So, assuming that the, 7-G-6 ROM, is the hot pair, and the circuit is turned off, connect the C from the timer to the G, the A from the timer to #6, the D from the timer to the #1 of the 3 + grnd NM, then connect B from the timer too #7, with a jumper/pigtail to the F on the light switch, connect E from the light switch too #3, of the 3 + grnd NM.

Remove the white #5 from the #6 of the hot pair. Terminate both conductors from the BLUE 2 + grnd NM, as they are no longer needed.

Connect the #2 of the 3 + grnd NM, too the #6 of the hot pair.

At the 4" ceiling box, add an additional 2 + grnd for the proposed new lighting. Connect all the grids, and all the whites. Then connect the #1 from the 3 + grnd NM, too the #4 from the BLUE 2 + grnd, connect the #3 from the 3 + grnd NM too the BLACK conductor of the proposed light 2 + grnd.

At the existing fixture , connect the #4 from the BLUE 2 + grnd too the BLACK conductor from the fan, and reconnect the WHITE from the BLUE 2 + grnd too the WHITE fan conductor.

Place your new light fixture/s.

Reenergize the circuit.
 
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