Connect 8-awg ground wire to 16-awg

[tomtheelder2020]

When I bought my house 32 years ago, it had no grounded receptacles. Where possible for outlets in in the kitchen and baths, and where electronics were plugged in, I ran ground wires from new receptacles and connected them to galvanized cold water pipes in the subfloor. Yes, I know that is not code but I figured better than nothing. Now I will be replacing the piping with PEX. My plan is to drive a 5/8 ground rod and run an 8-awg wire from it to wires from the receptacles. I think those wires are mostly solid 14-awg but some could be as small as 16-awg stranded. Looking at the HD website, I don't see connectors that look like they would work to attach wires from the receptacles to a continuous ground wire. Any recommendations will be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Sparky617]

What does your service panel have? I'd ground everything at the panel ground buss. If the panel is the main, the grounds and the neutrals are joined at the main. If your panel is a sub, they are kept electrically separate by having a ground buss bonded to the panel and the neutral buss isolated from the panel cabinet.

If you feel comfortable removing the cover to your panel take a picture of the inside and post it on this thread.

 

[Eddie_T]

I wouldn't worry too much about outlets being ungrounded. Almost everything we plug into a receptacle these days is two prong.

 

[Sparky617]

I wouldn't worry too much about outlets being ungrounded. Almost everything we plug into a receptacle these days is two prong.

"Most everything" not really today, especially in a kitchen. Lamps and some small electronics tend to be 2 prong many other things, not so much. I was staying at a church while doing volunteer work last week that had 2 prong outlets in the room we were staying in. They were also worn out, so they barely held on to the adapter and the plug hanging off of them. I replace a number of them with some salvaged 3 prong tamper resistant outlets.

 

[Eddie_T]

Grounded outlets are prolly needed in the kitchen but the rest of the house not so much. I have a mixer that is three prong but coffee maker, toaster, grill and electric frying pan are all two prong. My vacuum cleaner, fans and portable heaters are all two prong. One could just put grounded outlets where needed or better still GFCI outlets.

 

[tomtheelder2020]

I wouldn't worry too much about outlets being ungrounded. Almost everything we plug into a receptacle these days is two prong.

Bath, and particularly kitchen, still have 3 prong appliances and, just to approximate code, I would like to ground even if everything only 2 prong. I grounded some bedroom receptacles for electronics. I think all but one computer are now 2 prong but I am inclined to keep them grounded since I already have ground wires run into the subfloor.

 

[tomtheelder2020]

What does your service panel have? I'd ground everything at the panel ground buss. If the panel is the main, the grounds and the neutrals are joined at the main. If your panel is a sub, they are kept electrically separate by having a ground buss bonded to the panel and the neutral buss isolated from the panel cabinet.

If you feel comfortable removing the cover to your panel take a picture of the inside and post it on this thread.

All of the receptacles I want to keep grounded are fed by the original fuse box (see photo) that is now a subpanel to a 200 amp breaker box. It is mounted in the garage which is separated from the house by a 16 ft wide breezeway. Getting a ground wire from the subfloor, up to the attic, then across the breezeway and then down to the breaker box would be WAY more work, and a much longer run (about 80 feet from breakers to first receptacle wire) than driving a ground rod next to a subfloor vent.
Google Photos

 

[Sparky617]

Tom,
Even the house I grew up in that my dad built in 1954 had a circuit breaker panel. It was Federal Pacific, but that is another matter. Fuse panels are kind of out of my element since they haven't been installed in my lifetime. And other than an ancient apartment I had in the UK and one in Philly, I've never lived with one. Longer term your house needs new electric service to bring it into the late 20th century, let alone the first quarter of the 21st. Is your wiring knob and tube or 2 wire Romex? When was it built?

 

[tomtheelder2020]

The 1951 wiring is cable but, if I remember right, it is short of a cloth sheathing instead of plastic. I decided this morning to have an electrician give me an estimate to replace the fuses with breakers.

My original post asked how I could connect the 8-awg wire from the ground rod to the smaller wires I extended into the crawl space. I don't see anything on HD's website that looks like it would work. Any ideas?

 

[Hamberg]

You are correct, what you are describing will not (or was not) to code. The correct way (to code), and much easier then what you are proposing, is to replace the breakers for those circuits, with AFCI/GFCI breakers. (Probably get away with just GFCI but the difference in cost is negligible).

 

[tomtheelder2020]

You are correct, what you are describing will not (or was not) to code. The correct way (to code), and much easier then what you are proposing, is to replace the breakers for those circuits, with AFCI/GFCI breakers. (Probably get away with just GFCI but the difference in cost is negligible).

I had thought that solution would not work because these circuits are on fuses, not breakers, but now you are making me wonder. The fuse box subpanel is fed by two 50-amp breakers. Would it work to replace those breakers with AFCI/GGCI? Also, I have heard that AFCI breakers tend to trip frequently with old wiring. Is that problem real?

 

[afjes_2016]

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I have heard that AFCI breakers tend to trip frequently with old wiring. Is that problem real?

AFCI protection is for arc faults.. Older wiring is more apt to have faults in the wiring as insulation tends to degrade over time and connections also tend to loosen especially when back-stabbing receptacles and switches. So yes, if a breaker is AFCI it will trip under this condition of arcing where as a regular breaker will not probably.

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[Sparky617]

I had thought that solution would not work because these circuits are on fuses, not breakers, but now you are making me wonder. The fuse box subpanel is fed by two 50-amp breakers. Would it work to replace those breakers with AFCI/GGCI? Also, I have heard that AFCI breakers tend to trip frequently with old wiring. Is that problem real?

As far as I know there isn't such a thing as a GFCI fuse. You can install a GFCI outlet in your kitchen or bath without a ground. If you located it on the first outlet in the run all down stream outlets will have GFCI protection. It needs to be labeled to say it doesn't provide an earth ground.

At some point, rewiring and a new panel are likely needed at this house. How much effort it is will depend on the construction of the house. A single story house over a crawlspace or basement is "fairly" easy to rewire. A multistory house on a slab is probably the hardest to do without carving a bunch of holes in the walls and ceiling. Your 100 amp service is not ready for the all-electric future over benevolent overlords wish upon us. Adding an EV circuit will require 50 amps. There are smart panels out now that will prioritize circuits in order of importance. For example, say you have an electric stove, heat pump, electric water heater and electric dryer. You can program the panel the order of importance for each item, so your water heater and car charger would only charge when other loads are light and/or at night. This is a pretty good video on it. This guy does some interesting work. Electrical loads are certainly changing in our lives. Lighting loads are greatly reduced with the near wholesale replacement of incandescent lighting with LEDs. New flat panel TVs and computer monitors draw a small percentage of the CRTs they replaced. Newer PCs sip electricity compared to their forerunners. But straight heating devices like traditional ranges, clothes dryers, and water heaters haven't really improved much. Heat pump based water heaters are an improvement, and new heat pumps are much more efficient than models built 10+ years ago.

Technology Connections -- Smart Home

 

[Hamberg]

I had thought that solution would not work because these circuits are on fuses, not breakers, but now you are making me wonder. The fuse box subpanel is fed by two 50-amp breakers. Would it work to replace those breakers with AFCI/GGCI? Also, I have heard that AFCI breakers tend to trip frequently with old wiring. Is that problem real?

Helps if you actually read the posts before you reply :O/.

Didn't see the part about the fuses, however, along the lines of your thought, I do believe protecting the breaker leading to that box will work but @Sparky617 or @afjes_2016 could verify that for sure.

afjes addressed it above, and his points are valid; I'd offer up that with the old wiring an AFCI is actually more valuable in protecting against those faults.

Bottom line, now would be the time to upgrade what you have...

 

[Sparky617]

Helps if you actually read the posts before you reply :O/.

Didn't see the part about the fuses, however, along the lines of your thought, I do believe protecting the breaker leading to that box will work but @Sparky617 or @afjes_2016 could verify that for sure.

afjes addressed it above, and his points are valid; I'd offer up that with the old wiring an AFCI is actually more valuable in protecting against those faults.

Bottom line, now would be the time to upgrade what you have...

He added a picture of his panel in one of the responses, it is a fuse panel.

 

[bud16415]

They do make screw in breakers. I have never tried them but some of the big companies make them.



Fuses are inconvenient and viewed as old time, but IMO still offer the best protection of a circuit when sized properly. A breaker on a hard short can weld the contacts shut before it can open where when a fuse blows the gap grows with the greater current flow.



The biggest problem with old fuse panels was they didn’t provide enough circuits and people double and triple wired them. Then they would start blowing fuses so they would replace a 15a with a 20a etc. They all have the same Edison screw base like a light bulb. Back in the 60s they came out with adapters you screwed in that once in couldn’t be taken out and each rated fuse had a different screw size.



Of course people used to stick a penny in there when they didn’t have a fuse handy. I don’t know if the new zinc penny would just melt right away.



Bussmann 20 amps Plug Fuse 1 pk - Ace Hardware

 

[tomtheelder2020]

The biggest problem with old fuse panels was they didn’t provide enough circuits and people double and triple wired them. Then they would start blowing fuses so they would replace a 15a with a 20a etc. They all have the same Edison screw base like a light bulb. Back in the 60s they came out with adapters you screwed in that once in couldn’t be taken out and each rated fuse had a different screw size.

When I bought this place 32 years ago there was a 20 amp fuse for a circuit that I was pretty confident was designed for 15 amp. Today, with every bult in my house LED, and new circuits for the fridge, dishwasher and disposal, I am pretty confident those circuits are far from overloaded.

 

[tomtheelder2020]

I had an electrician out this morning for an estimate to replace the fuse box with breakers. He said that with old wiring, or even old lamps, toasters, etc. on new wiring, the AFCI breakers result in lots of nuisance tripping. I will stick with GFCI breakers.