Drainage

[alldun5]

OK As purchased 3-2012:
Built in 1940, 25' x 25', block foundation, sitting on a poured slab. At some point someone added drain tile by cutting a trench through the floor about 4" from the wall. This goes across the entire East and South walls. The North wall has it from the East, one half way to the West. The West wall only has about 4', from the South to the North. It is a 3" tile, with the top, at the same level as the slab. They drilled holes at the bottom of the lowest course of blocks. To "bury" it they laid bricks on their sides, about 12" from the wall, filled the area with pea gravel, at poured concrete over the gravel, out to the bricks.

We had a little water issue in the Spring of 2012. We attributed it to the downspouts, no window well covers and a unsealed gap between the driveway and the foundation. We moved the downspout 15' from the house and sealed the driveway seam. BONE dry until January. Then we had water from a new area. We had plumbers come in and remove the old tile and install new. This is under the floor which means they took out the bricks, trenched, set the new tile completely around the inside of the foundation, and poured the floor flush. they also plugged the holes that were drilled for the old tile. Now I have water everywhere. The walls have places 2' up that have water squirting in a stream 8" from the wall. This is 99% due to plugging the old drian holes so the walls are filling up. Why the tile isn't taking the water, I don't know, but it doesn't start to flow from the tile to the sump until 30 min after the walls start leaking. I'm considering a baseboard system as a supplement to the new tile. That would reopen the old drain holes and channel it to the sump pump.

Any ideas, or experience welcome!

 

[nealtw]

Welcome to the site. Did anyone suggest that it would be better to do this work on the outside of the house? Now that you havew had that work done I'm sure you don't need to here it. You can immagine how much pressure it would take to squirt water 8 ft, so the water table is alot higher than where it is leaking and adding a lot of unwanted pressure on the wall. Now your best bet might be to put a membrane on the inside that would direct water down to the drain even if that means cutting into the floor again.

 

[RedBaron]

This kind of seepage is happening to my brother. Apparently it's a common problem with older homes in Southern Ontario. The guy that came to quote a repair said the only way to fix it from the inside was to put in the drainage tile and drill the holes in every block at the bottom to let the water out. No matter what you do the hollows inside the block will collect water so at least with the holes you can control where it goes. My guess is your plumber should never have plugged those holes. Water always takes the easiest path. once the water gets to the bottom of the hollows its easier to escape through the wall than the foundation.

 

[alldun5]

Thanks for the info. I'm looking at the base board products, which I would re-open the holes and control rather than stop the water.
Anyone have experience with any of the base board stuff?

 

[nealtw]

I don't like it, even if you have hole in the bottom to allow water in, moisture will still wick thru the concrete and be a ongoing problem for the whole house. I would open the hole and then cover the inside of the wall with the sheet drainage like the one pictured above.
http://www.superseal.ca/interior-french-drain.html

 

[mudmixer]

alldun -

The baseboard systems do not stop leakage and they just collect what comes in. - A band-aid solution. The same applies to interior coatings, but they do help with humidity if the interior space is not conditioned.

Obviously, the best solution is drain tile (interior, exterior or both) because it removes the water AND reduces the hydrostatic pressure that really causes surface barriers to fail prematurely. Drain tile works 24/7, IF there is water available, reduces the hydrostatic pressure and minimizes the need for the costly surface systems.

Dual systems (exterior and interior linked) are rare except for new construction because the cost is so low at that time that some builders do it automatically on every home. They learned quickly that a very high percentage of moisture in a basement comes from the joint between the wall and slab with floor cracks closely behind. Interior or exterior systems are proven and economical even as an after-thought. If the pressure is reduced and excess water drained away, the walls perform better structurally and floor cracks/heaving is reduced (except for some expansive soils).

If you have block walls, you can use 3/4" poly tubes from them into the fill around the drain tile, but holes in poured concrete is a no-no. If you have constant drainage downward, wicking is minimized.

Dick

 

[RedBaron]

I don't like it, even if you have hole in the bottom to allow water in, moisture will still wick thru the concrete and be a ongoing problem for the whole house. I would open the hole and then cover the inside of the wall with the sheet drainage like the one pictured above.
http://www.superseal.ca/interior-french-drain.html

Not that I am an expert on drainage or anything but I think the biggest problem is the hollows of the cinder block filling up with water, without drainage holes in the bottom of the blocks the entire wall will still be saturated with water damaging the concrete.

In my far from expert opinion I would still think you want to put the holes into every block.

 

[nealtw]

Ya , I worded that wrong, holes in the block is a must. The water can still wick into the basement and evaporate there.

 

[alldun5]

alldun -

The baseboard systems do not stop leakage and they just collect what comes in. - A band-aid solution. The same applies to interior coatings, but they do help with humidity if the interior space is not conditioned.

Obviously, the best solution is drain tile (interior, exterior or both) because it removes the water AND reduces the hydrostatic pressure that really causes surface barriers to fail prematurely. Drain tile works 24/7, IF there is water available, reduces the hydrostatic pressure and minimizes the need for the costly surface systems.

Dual systems (exterior and interior linked) are rare except for new construction because the cost is so low at that time that some builders do it automatically on every home. They learned quickly that a very high percentage of moisture in a basement comes from the joint between the wall and slab with floor cracks closely behind. Interior or exterior systems are proven and economical even as an after-thought. If the pressure is reduced and excess water drained away, the walls perform better structurally and floor cracks/heaving is reduced (except for some expansive soils).

If you have block walls, you can use 3/4" poly tubes from them into the fill around the drain tile, but holes in poured concrete is a no-no. If you have constant drainage downward, wicking is minimized.

Dick

I haven't heard of the 3/4" poly tubes. I'll search, but do you know of a site that shows this? OR 1st hand knowledge of installation.

 

[nealtw]

I think what Dick is talking about is drilling the hole below floor level and inserting a 3/4" pipe elbow extended down to below the floor concrete. So everything is out of site when it's done.

 

[alldun5]

The slab is below the blocks. The first course is set on the slab.

 

[nealtw]

The slab is below the blocks. The first course is set on the slab.

So you could still work pipes in close to the wall and down to the drain, any finishing wall built there should be a full inch away from the block wall.

 

[mudmixer]

The installations I was referring to are very common and one builder had a special block made with holes in the face shell. They also had a solid top but were laid with open "head joints" on the ends to allow water to drain down and be picked up and routed into the gravel around and under the perforated PVC pipe inside the basement that was also linked to the exterior drain.

He bought reels of 3/4" (aprox.) flexible pipe that was precut in advance in his shops.

This was a standard installation in every one of the over 4000 homes built irregardless of the soil types because it was cheaper to make it a standard step and so cheap to do it when it can be scheduled in. The slabs were poured after the drainage, floor drains and other basement utilities were in.

Much of it was dictated by the speed and economics and never having a wet basement (and it worked!). Pouring the slab after the strip footings and walls were up allowed the house to be enclosed rapidly in inclement weather (-0F or summer downpours) for faster finishing.

It is a little overdone, but many other areas in the country do things similarly, especially where a "basement" (or part of it is) and for walk-outs.

Dick

 

[nealtw]

Dick: that makes more sence. I still don't like any system that will allow water to evaporate into the basement, so anything done at the floor should also include some allowence for further waterproofing the wall if the need arrises. I don't like the one post by the OP because of where it sits on the footing, taking away strength of the floor.