Exterior receptacle with long stripped and then broken screw

[tk3000]

Hello Folks,

On the exterior of my place in front of a deck there is an exterior surface mounted box. I was planing on replacing it with a gfci receptacle and also replace the surface mounted box with something sturdier and newer. There are two long screws that screw the junction box (which flush with the wall) along with the old receptacle and old surface mounted box (with a cover) to the wall (maybe the plywood sheathing or the stud). The whole thing old and it seems to have be mended in the past – there are signs that epoxy was used to hold the long screws, etc.

So, what should have been a 15min job turned out to be a very problematic situation given that one of the long screws was stripped. I tried different types of screw extractors (that served me well in the past) to no avail, the long screw simply did not bulge. At the end I decided to cut the head of the screw with bolt cutters. The pic below depicts the situation:



I only cut out the head of one screw, the other seemed to have had its head cut by somebody else at some point in the past. Any insight on how to address that situation would be appreciated.

(yeah, it has aluminum wires and it was pigtailed with copper wires in the past).

 

[PJB12]

Hello Tk3000!

For the screw with some still sticking out, would locking type pliers help? (Such as Vise Grips) That's assuming the other screw is removed and the hole usable. I'm not sure if it's gone from reading. (I confuse easily...)

You mentioned long screws holding the box to the wall. If they are the ones in the sleeves in the photo (where the broken screws are), can you put a cut-off wheel on a Dremel type tool and reach in to cut through them, box sleeve and all? I've never seen a box that mounts like that, but I don't work with plastic boxes- so what do I know from securing them?

If it's plastic, smash-and-pry might be the fastest option, but then you're committed.

To replace the flush box, a GEM Box should work & be very secure if the hole isn't too large. You'll screw to the masonry through the 4 screw holes on the ears. Using #6 pan head screws into vinyl anchors will allow the device cover to sit very flush. The depth can be adjusted by moving the ears fore and aft before installing.

If the hole is too large for a GEM, you could use fast setting mortar or hydraulic cement to reduce the hole size. I've done this many times with the GEM box in place to hold the mortar to exact size while it cures. If some oozes through the holes in the box, so much the better. The mortar will act like plaster keys.

Perhaps one of the many old-work type boxes on the market will fit the existing hole. It may be trial-and-error to find one.

Worst case, you should be able to mortar in an aluminum 1-gang dead-end FS or FD box and screw through the back to the sheathing, if it is there. (Not technically allowed, but you're in a jam.) The hub on the box can accept a romex connector for your NM cable.

I Hope The Job Goes Well!
Paul

 

[tk3000]

Hello Tk3000!

For the screw with some still sticking out, would locking type pliers help? (Such as Vise Grips) That's assuming the other screw is removed and the hole usable. I'm not sure if it's gone from reading. (I confuse easily...)

You mentioned long screws holding the box to the wall. If they are the ones in the sleeves in the photo (where the broken screws are), can you put a cut-off wheel on a Dremel type tool and reach in to cut through them, box sleeve and all? I've never seen a box that mounts like that, but I don't work with plastic boxes- so what do I know from securing them?

If it's plastic, smash-and-pry might be the fastest option, but then you're committed.

To replace the flush box, a GEM Box should work & be very secure if the hole isn't too large. You'll screw to the masonry through the 4 screw holes on the ears. Using #6 pan head screws into vinyl anchors will allow the device cover to sit very flush. The depth can be adjusted by moving the ears fore and aft before installing.

If the hole is too large for a GEM, you could use fast setting mortar or hydraulic cement to reduce the hole size. I've done this many times with the GEM box in place to hold the mortar to exact size while it cures. If some oozes through the holes in the box, so much the better. The mortar will act like plaster keys.

Perhaps one of the many old-work type boxes on the market will fit the existing hole. It may be trial-and-error to find one.

Worst case, you should be able to mortar in an aluminum 1-gang dead-end FS or FD box and screw through the back to the sheathing, if it is there. (Not technically allowed, but you're in a jam.) The hub on the box can accept a romex connector for your NM cable.

I Hope The Job Goes Well!
Paul

Hello Paul,

Sorry about the delay; I was away travelling (as is common those days).

Initially, about 1/8 of the screw was still protruding. I tried to turn the screw with a pair of locking pliers to no avail. Then, I used another pair of pliers to tighten the vise grips tightening nut and fro that point on I was able to unscrew the screw shank.

“You mentioned long screws holding the box to the wall. If they are the ones in the sleeves in the photo (where the broken screws are), can you put a cut-off wheel on a Dremel type tool and reach in to cut through them, box sleeve and all? I've never seen a box that mounts like that, but I don't work with plastic boxes- so what do I know from securing them?”

=> Sorry, my bad. I assumed that there screws given that there long that would go all the way to the back of the wall (stud or sheathing). The screws that I was able to extract were long (maybe 2”), but not long enough to reach the other side. In the case of the other screw removed from the other side (both hole in the box had broken screws), I am not sure how long it is given that I was able to remove about 1 ½ of the screw (part of the screw shank/thread is still lodged there). But, I under the impression that the box is held in place by the mortar (or some other compound).

Cont…

Upon removal of that screw, it was clear that there was another broken screw inside the screw hole. Whoever worked on this box in the past literally jammed two different types of screw of different types and lengths inside the screw holes. The screw hole on the other side also had a broken screw inside the screw hole (the other smaller screw that was there as well came out normally with a screwdriver). Then, I decide to use a dremel tool with a cutting disk (as you suggested) to cut about 1/8” of the plastic screw hole/column in order to expose about 1/8” of both broken screw’s shank/thread; once that was done, I was able to remove both broken screws in each hole using the same technique – tightening the vise grips knob with a pair of pliers in order to unscrew the broken screws.

In hindsight, it seems that the box is held in place with the mortar (or something else) as well; given that I tried slide a putty knife there to no avail. To break the box into piece or detach it from the mortar would be lots of work.

I read somewhere that #8 sheet metal screw would work in this type of situation. So, I bought some 1 ¼ and 1 ½ machine screws and was able to affix a new receptacle in place along with its surface mounted box; as shown below:


Thanks for all your great insights! Thankfully, I was able reuse the box (the sheet metal screw are holding really well) and, other than that, the plastic junction box seems sturdy and is intact.

On another thing, I was wondering if those grey boxes are pvc (I used to associate pvc junction boxes with the blue color); but that does not seem to be case nowadays (or maybe, it never was). Could you tell by looking at the box if it is PVC, thermoset plastic, abs or something else?

Thanks!

 

[PJB12]

Hello Tk3000,
I'm glad to learn that you got the problem rectified!

You asked if the box was PVC. (Assuming Photo in Post #1) I don't work with plastic, so I can't say for certain. I've seen Cantex brand grey PVC device boxes, so perhaps that's a Cantex box. (Instead of Carlon blue)

The fact that the top of the box is bowed and looking at the pattern around the right side screw hole, fiberglass is ruled out. I'm fairly certain it is PVC.

Regarding your thermoset mention, PVC (polyvinyl chloride) is a thermoplastic. It can be re-melted & re-molded. Thermoset plastic's main feature is that it won't re-melt when heated. It is also stiff. The bow in the box suggests it isn't thermoset.

Paul

 

[PJB12]

Delete.

 

[tk3000]

Hello Tk3000,
I'm glad to learn that you got the problem rectified!

You asked if the box was PVC. (Assuming Photo in Post #1) I don't work with plastic, so I can't say for certain. I've seen Cantex brand grey PVC device boxes, so perhaps that's a Cantex box. (Instead of Carlon blue)

The fact that the top of the box is bowed and looking at the pattern around the right side screw hole, fiberglass is ruled out. I'm fairly certain it is PVC.

Regarding your thermoset mention, PVC (polyvinyl chloride) is a thermoplastic. It can be re-melted & re-molded. Thermoset plastic's main feature is that it won't re-melt when heated. It is also stiff. The bow in the box suggests it isn't thermoset.

Paul

Hello Paul!


Sorry for the lapses in following up timely.



On the matter of electrical/junction boxes, one thing that bugs me a lot is the fact that builders typically use the cheapest plastic electrical boxes available. Often, they are flimsy, light duty and low quality. There are good heavy duty pvc boxes, like the following:



https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00H8NUVRO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1



The cheaper ones tend to flex when installing new receptacles/switches (especially the 2 ang 3 gang boxes) and to make matters worse the drywall around them sometime is partially crumbing. It can make installing screwless plates/covers a real pain.



I like the decora screwless plates/covers, the ones made of polycarbonate thermoplastic with a white matte finish and squarely shape/profile – it has a modern and seamless look. But, when it comes time to install them, it can be very time consuming mainly due the presence of flimsy and cheap plastic junction boxes (sometimes partially broken) that often are also out of square. To compensate, I may have to use spacers and oversized covers/plates and occasionally some other artifacts.



Another issue I have had with the box fill calculation and the practicality of filling everything is related to the newer smart switches. It seems that the NEC consider any devices (switch or receptacle) as two (2) fill units. And some new smart devices (smart switches, for instance) can have a much larger profile (or massive); creating a new challenge to fit it all in.

 

[PJB12]

Hello Paul!


Sorry for the lapses in following up timely.



On the matter of electrical/junction boxes, one thing that bugs me a lot is the fact that builders typically use the cheapest plastic electrical boxes available. Often, they are flimsy, light duty and low quality. There are good heavy duty pvc boxes, like the following:



https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00H8NUVRO/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1



The cheaper ones tend to flex when installing new receptacles/switches (especially the 2 ang 3 gang boxes) and to make matters worse the drywall around them sometime is partially crumbing. It can make installing screwless plates/covers a real pain.



I like the decora screwless plates/covers, the ones made of polycarbonate thermoplastic with a white matte finish and squarely shape/profile – it has a modern and seamless look. But, when it comes time to install them, it can be very time consuming mainly due the presence of flimsy and cheap plastic junction boxes (sometimes partially broken) that often are also out of square. To compensate, I may have to use spacers and oversized covers/plates and occasionally some other artifacts.



Another issue I have had with the box fill calculation and the practicality of filling everything is related to the newer smart switches. It seems that the NEC consider any devices (switch or receptacle) as two (2) fill units. And some new smart devices (smart switches, for instance) can have a much larger profile (or massive); creating a new challenge to fit it all in.

I'm 100% with you on plastic boxes. On the rare occasion (friends & family freebies) that I work in houses, those boxes always seem cheap. I see a lot where the plasterer pushed the sides in or the plaster expanded when it cured. If you can spring for plaster, how about better boxes.

Fire proof? Not so much. I lit one once. It burned just fine. And the smoke was acrid.

You can get fiberglass device boxes to use instead of the plastic ones. I've used them in my house on occasion.
Allied has new work and old work, as well as specialty. https://alliedmoulded.com/?sfid=20336&_sfm_installation_type=Old Work

I bought a 4-gang new work with speed clamps for the NM cable for about $3.50 at a home center. I think it was Lowes.

For device covers, since I can't ever install one without cracking it, clumsy boy that I am, I buy steel. They come in textured, matte and gloss. Good mom-and-pop hardware stores carry them. Electrical supply houses do as well. In a pinch, nylon aren't bad. Plastic? I'm lucky if they make it to the site before I manage to break them.

Box Fill? You're right about it not making sense with the larger devices. The whole point is heat. Dimmers and smart switches give off a lot more heat than a receptacle outlet. Should not the box fill calculations be updated to suit? I think so.

Want to drive your self crazy? Try to put the conductor fill allowance in a conduit with the allowed 360 degrees of turns. What a chore, especially when using 500 mcm and larger.

Well that's my spouting off for the day!

Paul