GFI equipment ground in old circuit?

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Opa1965

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Hi all.
I bought a mid century home a few years back that has ungrounded receptacles in much of the house. I looked into installing gfi breakers in the first plug in each circuit, knowing that the no equipment ground sticker would have to be used.
My question is that if I were to run new wire from the breaker to the first receptacle with a ground, would the rest of the series be equipment grounded as well?
Maybe a dumb question, but figured I would ask.
Thanks very much in advance!
Opa
 
No, running a new wire from the breaker panel to the first receptacle in the circuit would not cause the entire existing circuit to be grounded if there is no continuity from one receptacle to the next in the way of a ground wire to begin with.

GFCI receptacles being placed in the first receptacle and wiring the downstream to the "load" side of the GFCI is the way to go to protect alll of the receptacles downstream. You will have to understand that there will be no equipment ground available in that circuit.

Even if you were to use a GFCI breaker in the panel itself you would still have the same issue of no equipment ground. You will have GFCI personal protection though.
 
It can get a bit confusing depending on how your home was wired and where the first outlet on a circuit is located. You may go to plug something in the living room and trip the GFCI and the master may be in the bedroom behind the dresser or bed headboard. Likewise putting them all back at your main panel may require a trip to the basement each time one faults.



GFCI should also be tested about once a month and I know no one does that but I believe it is recommended so you know they are still working.



Many times in older homes the lighting and outlets are strung together so you may find a tripped GFCI will also affect lights.



A total rewire to come up to code is by far the best, but it can be a messy job as access often means opening walls and ceilings.



I would start by mapping the whole house finding where the first point is on each run and maybe marking all the outlets with where the reset point is located.



In my basement when whoever did the rewire of the house put an outlet right next to the panel and then ran the basement lights off it. All the wire has the bare copper equipment ground also but for code the basement needs GFCI.



I wonder and @afjes_2016 can tell us. Could a guy with an old 2 wire home without equipment ground wire new runs out of his main panel up to a covenant location and have a row of new GFCI outlets and then return them to a junction box next to the panel to continue the original circuits around the home. Maybe locate them just inside the basement staircase or someplace where you could have them numbered and a map of what they control. So anytime there was a fault you could just go to one place and reset them without messing around inside the panel
 
I wonder and @afjes_2016 can tell us.
Sorry Bud, not quite sure what you are asking/saying here.
Maybe too early in the morning for me and no coffee yet :coffee: - oh, wait, no beer yet, it's past 12pm.
My bad :eyeballs:

Oups, maybe you are talking about placing the GFCis in a central location?
Alternative to your method would be using GFCI breakers - the panel is a central location.

Mapping your house is important. Take a piece of paper. Draw a crude diagram of the layout of the house. Mark on the diagram where all receptacles and lights are in the diagram. One day have a party with your neighbor and offer him a lot of beer and you stay at the panel (less work for you ;)) and have your neighbor go from receptacle to light and mark on the diagram what receptacle/light is controlled by which breaker as you shut them off. If you owe your neighbor a favor offer them much more beer and you go from receptacle to light and mark the diagram as they shut off each breaker.

Marking up a diagram is much more accurate than trying to write on a label next to each breaker what that breaker controls. Place the diagram in a sheet protector and tuck it next to the panel. That is what I did with all of my renovations and new builds. The customers loved it.
 
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Sorry Bud, not quite sure what you are asking/saying here.
Maybe too early in the morning for me and no coffee yet :coffee: - oh, wait, no beer yet, it's past 12pm.
My bad :eyeballs:
What I’m saying is placing a GFCI into the first location on a circuit will then protect the rest of the circuit as long as the circuit is continued off the load taps and not the line taps.



What I’m suggesting is adding a new first outlet to each circuit in a location where it is easy to get at, and keep them all together. It could be done right next to the main panel but that wouldn’t help much because you could just use GFCI breakers and have the same thing. I’m thinking about where someone doesn’t want to run to the basement where the panel is likely at to reset a fault. In my house the basement is not modern or finished. If the first outlet is behind a bed that’s not much better for an old person and is also confusing to someone that might buy the home figuring out what is going on.



Another thought would be a whole house GFCI with a remote reset if that is even a thing.



Another way that would be more expensive but not as expensive as rewiring the whole home would to replace every outlet with a GFCI. I would wire them so that any feed off them went to the line connection. At least then if you get a trip you reset it where the thing is plugged in.
 
Now you got the idea Bud :cool:
Your methods are valid.

Yes, having a receptacle first in line behind the headboard of a bed would be a problem for me also, these old bones won't tolorate it. Yup, GFCI breakers are the best way to go. Panel too old and the breakers are super expensive, then go with your idea of mounting the GFCi receptacles next to the panel for each circuit. Run short leads from the breakers to each GFCI for the circuits. Take your existing circuits from the panel and connect them to the "load" sides of the GFCI you just installed and "bang" same thing accomplished. All GFCI are now in one location.
 
Now you got the idea Bud :cool:
Your methods are valid.

Yes, having a receptacle first in line behind the headboard of a bed would be a problem for me also, these old bones won't tolorate it. Yup, GFCI breakers are the best way to go. Panel too old and the breakers are super expensive, then go with your idea of mounting the GFCi receptacles next to the panel for each circuit. Run short leads from the breakers to each GFCI for the circuits. Take your existing circuits from the panel and connect them to the "load" sides of the GFCI you just installed and "bang" same thing accomplished. All GFCI are now in one location.
Cool. Now the next step would be for a person with a nasty panel location to not place them next to the panel but in a location that’s not that hard to run wires too but is in a location for the homeowner to get to. In my old homes I have owned that would be by the basement door leading down. The wire runs would all be together so that would make it easy to do.



I picture a chart or map right there that shows each outlet in the house numbered and what GFCI controls it.



I have never seen this done anyplace ether a row at the panel or a row at another location. It seem like it would work in practice and be the least destructive way to make a home safer and also bring it to code.



The old places I have owned have been 2 story with plaster walls and ceilings that are tough to open and repair to look good with swirled ceilings and such.



Most people know how to reset a GFCI but get confused when it is controlled by a GFCI in some goofy location.
 
That's the ticket Bud :clap


I have electric ice melters on my roof edges. Two circuits. They are plugged into receptacles I ran on the corners of the house up by the gutters. Yup, gFCi protected like they should be.
However, because this old body does not like climbing ladders anymore - in case a gFCi receptacle trips I mounted the GFCI receptacles inside my home in a back room. Ran the circuits from the panel to this location. 4x4 box installed a GFCI and switch on each of the circuits. Roof freezing up on the edges with ice; no problem, flip the switch at this location on the two circuits and the ice melters are now hot. If the GFCI trips for any reason, no biggie, the GFCI is right there in the house, no need to climb a ladder to reset the GFCI. I mounted at the corners from these circuits a regular receptacle (WR) in an in-use box and plugged those ice melters in there. Oh, and the switches are lighted so I can see if the melters are on or off by the light on the switches.
 
With multiple gfci on the same branch can they be wired such that one doesn't experience upstream trips.
 
With multiple gfci on the same branch can they be wired such that one doesn't experience upstream trips.
Yes if you continue the run using LINE rather than LOAD. It will be like each has its own path back to the panel.



If you chain them together with the Load terminals I have read where a fault can trip both.
 
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That's the ticket Bud :clap


I have electric ice melters on my roof edges. Two circuits. They are plugged into receptacles I ran on the corners of the house up by the gutters. Yup, gFCi protected like they should be.
However, because this old body does not like climbing ladders anymore - in case a gFCi receptacle trips I mounted the GFCI receptacles inside my home in a back room. Ran the circuits from the panel to this location. 4x4 box installed a GFCI and switch on each of the circuits. Roof freezing up on the edges with ice; no problem, flip the switch at this location on the two circuits and the ice melters are now hot. If the GFCI trips for any reason, no biggie, the GFCI is right there in the house, no need to climb a ladder to reset the GFCI. I mounted at the corners from these circuits a regular receptacle (WR) in an in-use box and plugged those ice melters in there. Oh, and the switches are lighted so I can see if the melters are on or off by the light on the switches.
I did similar when I added some outside outlets that I sometime use for Christmas lights. I found an inside box and then cut the hole for the outside box in the same stud bay just offset to the side of the existing box. I added a GFCI to the inside box replacing the old one and ran a new wire the short distance to the outside box. I like the idea of having the electronics of the GFCI inside the house also. Outdoor GFCIs are also more expensive.



A benefit to having the GFCI inside is during the holidays I turn the lights on and off with the GFCI test and reset button. So far it has worked fine been doing it a few years now. Beats going out in the weather. The GFCIs I used have a test light that comes on when it is tripped kind of a reminder like your gutter switch.



As a general note I Highly recommend the switches with the light built in. Great for basement lights or outside lights where you forget they are on.
 
This thread has me thinking and with GFCI outlets around $20 a pop as a DIY home fix I would guess to do the average home would be under 500 bucks to just replace them all and be done with it.
 
Thank you all very much for your responses! I knew that there was a gap in my original thinking, which is why I brought the question here. Thank you for showing it to me.

Great group!
 
Hi all.
I bought a mid century home a few years back that has ungrounded receptacles in much of the house. I looked into installing gfi breakers in the first plug in each circuit, knowing that the no equipment ground sticker would have to be used.
My question is that if I were to run new wire from the breaker to the first receptacle with a ground, would the rest of the series be equipment grounded as well?
Maybe a dumb question, but figured I would ask.
Thanks very much in advance!
Opa
Dear Opa: Yes, this is a tested and approved way of adding GFCI protection to an older home that was wired without ground lines - which is common. I just returned from Los Angeles where we updated my mother's 1950 era home, which was wired without ground lines.

This approach is much more convenient than AFCI / GFCI breakers, where someone would need to go to the breaker box every time something trips - often located outdoors, when it might be raining, snowing etc. You can also add multiple AFCI / GFCI receps in series. For example, one circuit fed every recep and a bathroom in my mother's house. A GFCI is required in the bath, however, which is downstream. No problem. You can also install an AFCI/GFCI in every room at the "starting point".

A caution: Receps in a room are not always wired in series. Sometimes one is connected to a room on the other side of a wall. As others have noted, you will need to 'map' the circuits and receps in your house. Start with receps closest to the panel. Remove the existing recep and check others to see which are not "hot". (Use a 'glow stick' or recep tester.) You should be able to quickly find the #1 recep in each room - which may extend over multiple rooms.

An important suggestion: Use a dual function AFCI / GFCI recep - not an older style GFCI-only recep. AFCI adds protection against overheated lines that cause fires, e.g. someone plugged an a portable heater into a too-thin extension cord. Home Depot carries Leviton AFCI / GFCI recps, which work well. Lowes carries Eaton AFCI / GFCI receps, which I have not tested but should work well. See:
You should also replace other receptacles with modern "tamper resistant" receps, particularly if you have children in the house.

I hope this is helpful.

Bvillebound
 
Someone with some up to date code knowledge check me here please.

If installing a AFCI receptacle the circuit from the panel to that receptacle box must utilize a wire shielded covering such as MC or conduit from the panel to that box, can not be romex/NM.
 
Someone with some up to date code knowledge check me here please.

If installing a AFCI receptacle the circuit from the panel to that receptacle box must utilize a wire shielded covering such as MC or conduit from the panel to that box, can not be romex/NM.
This is incorrect. "Wire shielded" cable is not required for an AFCI / GFCI receptacle. Read the details on the Leviton or Eaton sites, for example.
 

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