Help locate a drain fitting?

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum' started by jfls45, Jun 6, 2009.

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  1. Jun 6, 2009 #1

    jfls45

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    I am trying to locate a shower drain fitting but having no luck. Been to all the local stores and have done an exhaustive search online with no results. It is the weekend so I can't call a plumbing supply house for help, thought I would try here.

    I have a shower setup that isn't the normal way so I have to improvise. For whatever reason when they built this house 40 years ago they put the shower drain about 2 1/2 feet from the commode. I removed a cheap square 32" shower stall that sat on a raised tray and the drain was plumbed over to the cast iron pipe in the concrete. This is in a basement. I am putting in a corner shower stall but the drain isn't anywhere near the shower base drain opening. I am using a masonry blade in my circular saw and air chisel with my compressor to make a trench in the concrete to lower the plumbing down enough to fit under the new shower base.

    I am trying to replace this fitting because I tore it up removing the old shower stall. The fitting has a 2" threaded opening that attached to the shower drain and a horizontally located 1 1/2" non threaded opening for pvc pipe. On the bottom of the fitting it says, "PVC-DWV NO.82.305 WHITE US Patent NO. 3895398. I searched on google with these numbers with no luck as well.

    If anyone has any idea what this thing is called or where I could get one please let me know. Pictures provided below...

    Jeff

    100_1868.jpg

    100_1869.jpg

    100_1870.jpg
     
  2. Jun 7, 2009 #2

    jfls45

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    I live in PA so being up to code isn't a big deal here. No required plumbing lic. or electricians lic either, for that matter, the only problem I would run into would be a home inspector getting inquisitive sometime in the future, I am not that concerned really.

    I was hoping to go with a similiar setup like I took out so I am not chiseling and cutting all kinds of concrete out of the floor. With my luck around here I would go all the way through the concrete floor and hit the water tables, flooding the basement. I want to make this as painless as possible. Thats why I am looking for this same type fitting.

    Jeff
     
  3. Jun 7, 2009 #3

    Nestor_Kelebay

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    This must be a plumbing part that was only used in Pennsylvania because this web site:

    https://keithspecialty.com/fixt.bathtubs_showers.htm

    is for a business that's also in Pennsylvania and that advertises a

    "1 1/2" pvc 90 degree shower drain with white strainer" for $21.95

    Google "90 degree shower drain" and Kohler will show up in the results list. You might want to go look at a Kohler catalogue as you might find something of better quality, such as solid brass, there.
     
  4. Jun 7, 2009 #4

    MACPLUMB

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    i am surprised any sells that as it is a illegal sewer fitting
    you need your shower drain to drop directly into the top of a p trap to block sewer gas from coming back into the house ! !

    This is to protect the health and safety of your family and anyone you might sell the house to in the future

    your shower drain connects directly to a city sewer where all the bacteria and germs are running,
    or up from a septic tank

    jerrymac master plumber
     
  5. Jun 7, 2009 #5

    jfls45

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    Fortunately, your wrong on two points, the trap is cemented under the cement floor and it runs into a gray water pipe that doesn't run into my septic. I live in Western PA and they could care less about "code" around here.

    Want to try another useless rant?
     
  6. Jun 8, 2009 #6

    Redwood

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    No but it probably stops us plumbers from having any desire to help you...

    So go ahead install that cobbled up mess that if it ever clogs will be very difficult to clean...
    When now with things apart it probably could have been done right in the time it has taken you to post it on the several forums and run around looking for a fitting that doesn't meet code...

    I don't care what you install in your home...
    I could care less if it works or, meets code...
    But, if you don't care either I can't give you the time of day...
    It's not worth me wasting my time...

    Press on!:beer:
     
  7. Jun 8, 2009 #7

    jfls45

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    sound like a bunch of lawyers plumber lawyers.

    glad I'm a controls engineer
     
  8. Jun 8, 2009 #8

    Nestor_Kelebay

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    I just get a warm feeling when everything comes together, just like the love in this forum.

    OK, everybody, big group hug!!!

    Seriously, though, why would a horizontal offset of what looks to be less than a foot make the drain "illegal"? On every bathtub you have a similar horizontal offset before the p-trap. On my sister's double kitchen sink, there's a horizontal offset between each of the two drains and the one p-trap. On every washing machine's stand pipe, there's at least a 3 foot vertical offset between the top of the stand pipe and the p-trap?

    This web page says that in Wisconsin, the plumbing code allows for a total of 15 inches of combined vertical and horizontal piping between the shower drain and the trap.
    http://www.plbg.com/forum/read.php?1,351698
    The original poster's pictures show that his drain wouldn't be much more than that, so he'd be legal in Wisconsin.

    And, the only thing on that web page that gives any reason not to have a horizontal offset between the shower drain and the trap is the statement:
    The 15" piece of horizontal pipe before the trap will have a tendency to give off odors. Hair, soap scum, etc can build up , decay, and have a bad smell. Since its before the trap theres no water seal to prevent this.

    But, if memory serves, you have about 15 inches of empty pipe before every bathtub p-trap in the world that, by rights, should also "have a tendency to give off odors", and yet it's never been a problem. I have 21 bathtubs, and NONE of them give off offensive odors or I couldn't rent my suites. So, why would a shower be any worse in that regard than a bathtub?

    And, let's not put this post in the bag marked "If you're telling people not to follow their building codes, you're putting their lives at risk and you otta be shot". There has to be some sober reasoning behind the plumbing code, but it seems to be treating showers different than bathtubs, even though lots of bathtubs are used as showers. So, why are short horizontal offsets perfectly fine on bathtubs and double kitchen sinks but if you go a little longer on a shower drain, it's apparantly so dangerous as to be "illegal".

    Can anyone explain, cuz I sure as he11 can't.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2009
  9. Jun 8, 2009 #9

    jfls45

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    Something tells me I would appreciate your input while your standing in my basement bathroom giving me advice. Some of these other guys I can almost picture the exposed crack as their t-shirt (that doesn't fit and has holes in it) rides up their back. A bunch of them sound like they want to be lawyers when their speaking the code.

    This thing worked fine with the old shower, I am simply replacing that old shower and putting in something nicer. I don't really smell anything out of that hole. When you look down inside that hole you see a much larger opening and I think a floor drain also empties into it.

    Jeff
     
  10. Jun 8, 2009 #10

    Redwood

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    Nestor, what Wisconsin Code has to do with a Plumbing situation in Pennsylvania I don't know...

    This shower is clearly a hacked up mess that was created when someone put in a shower and plumbed it to an existing floor drain, hence the raised platform and cobbled up mess.

    Now it's even starting to sound like it's an indirect drain at that...

    Sheesh!

    Rip it out and do it right!
    I'm sticking by my answer.

    BTW that pvc electrical conduit is a sweet touch...
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2009
  11. Jun 8, 2009 #11

    Nestor_Kelebay

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    Jeff & Redwood:

    Jeff: I think I found the part you need. If you didn't notice, go back and read my previous posts.

    There is absolutely no need to turn a technical discussion into a name calling contest. It doesn help solve the problem, and it doesn't make you look any better in the eyes of the other people reading these forums. When arguements turn personal on the internet, I can't help but get a lesser opinion of everyone participating cuz they should be able to see with their own eyes that it's not going to help any, so what's the point.

    I agree with Redwood that with the amount of work you're already doing, it would make some horse sense to replace that mixture of iron and plastic plumbing materials with a totally PVC drain pipe just to be able to say you did the best job you were capable of. It's important for us DIY'ers to take pride in the work we do. Both MacPlumb and Redwood are professional plumbers, and I'd listen to what they have to say, and try and incorporate their advice into your repair. Maybe if you could post some pictures of the drain you're wanting to connect to, and they were still willing to look at your situation, they may have some good ideas that you would also want to include in your work.



    Redwood:
    I guess the main point in my last post is that there doesn't seem to be any sense to have a plumbing code that says you can't have a horizontal offset under a shower if you can in other situations like bathtubs, and if you can in other states. The fact that Wisconsin allows up to 15 inches of combined vertical and horizontal offset between the drain and the trap tells me it's not a safety issue because if it was, the various plumbing codes around your country would be unanimous on that one point.

    We're telling the poster that what he's doing is wrong because it doesn't comply with his local plumbing code, and yet we can't think of any reason why the plumbing code won't allow a horizontal offset under his shower, and there are plenty of examples we can see where you can have a horizontal offset under a drain.

    If you look at the washrooms in hospitals and senior's residences, the sinks will have a horizontal offset of about a foot under them to allow for people in wheel chairs to get close enough to the faucet to reach it comfortably from their wheel chair.

    When I was in university, one of my profs gave me some advice that stuck. He told me that if I ever had any questions about anything he taught in his class, to ask about it right away to get things straightened out in my mind. That's because he wasn't going to start explaining it during the final exam.

    This offset issue is a perfect example of the kind of question that needs to be cleared up right away because it's just not making any sense NOT to allow a horizontal offset under a shower when there are so many examples of horizontal and vertical offsets under other kinds of drains.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2009
  12. Jun 9, 2009 #12

    Redwood

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    The code is what it is and there is really nothing I personally can do about it. I personally would love to see a National Plumbing Code in our country it sure would be a lot easier than what we have. Whe have a multitude of different codes adopted at State, County, And even Local levels. Even when there is a state code a local ammendment may be adopted. The Electricians heve it made with the National Electrical Code...

    The fact that you cite Wisconsin is interesting. They certainly have some very strange things in their code. Did you realize that in Wisconsin a pedestal sink may have a tailpiece extend all the way through the floor to a trap below the floor? Neither here nor there this horizontal offset if it was directly to a trap would create a running trap that is prohibited by almost every code around...

    Running traps create a great degree of dificulty for snaking a line. Now in this instance it is now sounding like it doesn't even go directly to a trap. Instead it is going to an indirect drain. This is something that is not allowed for a shower at all and creates even more difficulty in snaking a drain.

    The poster needs to comply with the code in his area and it doesn't matter what they do in Wisconsin. It is completely irrelevent to this post. Nestor I'm thinking that there should be one plumbing code for the whole world and your plumbing up in Canada should be done just like the plumbing they have in Mexico... It's the same logic! Personally I could easily pass on having plumbing done in my house like they have in Mexico...

    The example you cite is very different and it is allowed by code. The difference is that P-Trap under the sink is removable to facilitate snaking of the line. On an interesting note these ADA Compliant Drains that you cite are not the best working drains I have ever seen but accomodations must be made for handiap accessability.

    Nestor while that may be good advice on in a Theology Class at the University in the world of plumbing we are limited to doing work that meets the specifications of the Plumbing Code. Everything in the code is there for a reason. In this case the poster is seeking to create an indirect drain in a concealed location that would have no way to clean the drain should it become clogged. The poster could literally step out of his shower and discover that while showering he flooded the basement without even realizing it. The stopped up drain would then be without any access to clear the clog.

    Installing a fixture not to code does not increase the value of the home. In fact it detracts from it and becomes a liability where during the sale of the home removal or upgrading to the specifications of the code could be required. In some circumstances this work may even be required after the sale as it was not disclosed as a known problem.

    Nestor it needs to be done properly and to code and any advice to the contrary is just plain bad advice. There is no room for energetic debate here. The poster needs to do it right or not do it at all. There is no place in this country where a code does not apply. Some rural areas inspection may be very lax but the requirements of the plumbing code still apply whatever code is adopted for that area.

    Nestor in addition to that... look at the picture...
    Look Close!
    In the picture I see
    Elecrical Conduit
    Black Iron Pipe
    Being used for a drain...
    Come on! Where do they allow that?
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2009
  13. Jun 9, 2009 #13

    DUNBAR

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    Very aware of Pennsylvania and their host of problems when it comes to issues ranging from the bottom to the top. As long as this continues there will be threads like this with no mentality to change above substandard "get by" antics as you've described.





    Given this tidbit of non-useful information pertaining to this subject matter, I would follow the attitude you present so far in the enhanced words I took verbatim from your posts above and realize that the position you hold would not amount to the intellect represented by not one but 3 plumbers representing the value of what a licensed plumber is trained to detect as defective whether in material choice, workmanship, or by basic design.



    It makes no difference whether in person or on a phone, on the internet, you're trying to take out plumbing that was wrong and put it back in wrong. As for representation in a t-shirt I own that along with buttcrack smiles but if you're so inclined to look, then it's at your discretion not to poise and look with wandering eyes.

    There are lots of scenarios that "work fine" that don't hold a candle to being installed correctly. If you join a forum to receive such opposition that your method is flawed, there should be a flag of warning and not the flag of your state that you're trying to excuse the talent to do wrong. I'm still waiting for one forum member from PA that would like to do something right without a book/code/provision that thinks maybe doing it right might be something that's done without cohersion.






    The code reference to Wisconsin does not apply as would any reference I make to Kentucky, even though I would refer to the practice as in "why it is done" and so forth.

    The comparison to hand sinks to showers is not reliable for the reason that the contents of what enters that drain are different.

    A shower drain will take on urine, blood, feces, body oils and hair, bodily fluids (if your workin' it in the shower) and whatever else might make it into that orifice.

    The hand sink you mentioned would carry the contents of saliva, general handwashing, vomit, blood and other non-human items. I mention the contents because of what the drain comprises of and what it harbors, to which both are bad.

    One of those drains is going to sour/become a known area for smells and attract insects. This happens because of the distance from opening of drain to trap. I get calls for drains that smell just within a few inches to the top of the trap seal, let alone 15"+ to the trap. Aside from all of this, a drain is a drain and everything is bad inside of it.


    The true issue that has 4 people concerned about this installation is the fact that "normal" people as given the ratio in this thread like to do a task in their home properly and correctly. Not gloat incessantly about how "their state is free and wild" and continues to be spoken through the people who obviously defend it.

    To each their own and they all stand alone is a good way to understand that perception.

    This thread has either molded a mind to do a task properly or used to defend a task that will be done incorrectly. It is sad that it will be as the effort to correct this issue is relatively simple, something to task that a "engineer" without hours of cross-analyzing should of presented the attitude to fix it correctly, not incorrectly.

    But that's just me understanding what my profession has created, knowledge.

    There is a difference between good and bad advice. The good thing is we're not responsible for this fellow's mistakes when he makes them.

    I've been cheering the steelers for years and every once in a while you gotta understand that the rage doesn't exist in all of us, this thread proves it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2009
  14. Jun 9, 2009 #14

    Nestor_Kelebay

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    OK, now that you mention it, I can't say that I've ever seen galvanized iron piping ever used on a drain pipe until now.

    And, here in the Great White North, you can't have a 90 degree elbow on a drain pipe because of the much greater liklihood of either not being able to get around that corner with a snake or getting the snake stuck at the corner. They want you to use two 45's instead.

    I see a white PVC shower drain cemented to a grey PVC pipe cemented into an ABS male pipe thread adapter (I wasn't sure you could glue PVC to ABS) threaded into a galvanized elbow. The ABS coming down is a bit confusing to me because it appears that the diameter of the pipe is larger than that of the threaded end piece, and that means the threaded end piece never had a socket to cement the pipe into.

    I can't say I can see any electrical conduit, but if you're saying there's electrical conduit there, I'd be guessing it's gotta be that vertical pipe that looks like ABS because I can't explain how that threaded piece at the top got cemented to what looks like ABS pipe.


    Dunbar: I can't say that I fully understood that, but what goes down a shower drain is darn near identical to what goes down a bathroom sink drain. In both cases it's mostly soap and/or artificial detergents, hair, dead skin cells, body oils, cosmetics and shaving cream (or shaving soap). There's vastly more of a difference between this and what goes down a toilet or what goes down a kitchen sink drain which will include various kinds of food. In my opinion, there isn't enough of a difference in what goes down a sink and a shower drain to say that's why the code seems to treat the two differently.

    But, I agree that regardless of how right or wrong it is, ya gotta abide by your local plumbing code.
     
  15. Jun 9, 2009 #15

    jfls45

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    replacing the galvinized elbow, the black pvc, all of that isn't an issue, I can go to my local hardware and get the right pipe, what my question is, if I jackhammer up the concrete, what do I do with the cast iron pipe? It seems like alot of unnecessary work. How about finding a "grandfather clause" for me so I can just make this thing work, Yes I will use the right pipe materials, yes I will make it so it doesn't leak and yes I will make sure it slopes down enough so it actually drains. How about I just use some common sense in doing the job and not worry about all the "plumbing code" legal semantics?

    How about checking out my pics of all this mess and seeing what I am actually up against and not just judging it by the fittings in the first pictures?

    PictureTrail: Online Photo Sharing, Social Network, Image Hosting, Online Photo Albums
     
  16. Jun 10, 2009 #16

    Redwood

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    Okay!
    Yep!
    This is exactly the kind of Pig Slop Plumbing I was talking about!
    I'm going to enter these into a Pig Slop Plumbing Contest!
    These look like a fer sure winner...
    BTW it won't do any good to delete these pics...
    I considered them good enough to save...

    You're running it over to a floor drain!

    The only legal plumbing in the whole picture is the floor drain![​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2009
  17. Jun 10, 2009 #17

    Redwood

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    Nestor,
    This is what I was talking about...

    [​IMG]

    About the only legal part here that could be used in a drain is the Galvanized Elbow!

    jfls45,
    Tonite I would suggest taking a well earned break from your project...
    Rent a movie and relax...
    Have a cold one...:beer:

    May I suggest renting Dirty Harry... Magnum Force...
    Pay close attention to this part...
    The one where Harry Callahan tells Lieutenant Briggs...
    You have a few tasks ahead of you...

    You need to determine if that floor drain is connected to a sanitary sewer.
    You need to break the slab.
    Remove the existing floor drain trap.
    Extend the drain to a new trap under the shower drain and install a vent through the roof of tie into an existing vent.

    If you are not up to the task either abandon the project or, call a plumber to do the work right.:hide:
     
  18. Jun 10, 2009 #18

    jfls45

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    your wrong on the black iron pipe. its actually black pvc pipe
     
  19. Jun 10, 2009 #19

    handyguys

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    Jeff - Bottom line - If you are busting up concrete anyway just locate a standard trap in the correct position. You can get the parts at any home center. Its easy to do.

    While you are at it keep busting up the concrete to get to a sanitary sewer and make your connection there, not to a gray water discharge. The gray water discharge is for things like floor drains and sump pumps, not for showers.

    Do it right. Oh, I'm not a plumber but I do have that crack so I feel like I can offer some sane advice. Listen to Redwood and Mac - They know what they are talking about.
     
  20. Jun 10, 2009 #20

    Redwood

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    Yep I noticed that in the enlargement after I had tagged and posted it...
    Wasn't going back to change it...

    That aside there are plenty of issues....

    If that floor drain is going to a storm sewer and they start seeing soap bubbles....
    Trust me you'll hear about it!
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2009
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