Help with Outside Garage Lighting

[nealtw]

Just ordered the Fluke Networks Pro 3000. Just have to wait till it comes in, figure out how to use it and then I will report back with results.

If that doesn't work, this one is home made for one is home made.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c65fmrZCyd4[/ame]

 

[Afrowookie]

Hey all, I'm back finally. Sorry but I have been away for work and just got back this weekend.

Anyways I received my Fluke Networks Pro 3000 and used it. On the switch and here is what I found. After I hooked up the tone generator on the switch wires I proceeded to go outside to the garage lights to see if I hear the tone. The answer is yes I heard the tone on both lights.

Then I went to the receptacle I suspected the lights are wired to and it does have a tone. Also found out that behind the wall partition in the house where my problem switch is also has a receptacle and that also generated a tone so I am guessing it's wired through there as well.

The other thing I found out the reason why I couldn't detect anything with my no touch voltage detector on any of the conduits coming from the house or from the garage is because the wire doesn't appear to be going through those conduits. I used my Fluke and no beeps on any of the conduits. So it appears the wire is going underground somewhere.

Also pressed the continuity button on the tone generator box and the light came on so it looks like there is continuity in the wire.

If I detected a tone throughout the circuit right to the garage lights themselves, how come when I was looking for power I did not detect it at the lights nor at the receptacle in the garage?

 

[Snoonyb]

Good to see you have returned and thanks for taking the initiative.

However, when you say, "After I hooked up the tone generator on the switch wires I proceeded to go outside to the garage lights to see if I hear the tone."

Which conductors? All three in the romex, or just the two attached too the switch?

Did kill the power feeding the "J" box the switch is in?

Did you attempt to detect a signal, from the switched hot or from the neutral conductor, individually, and follow the conductors as they left either/both the switch "J" box or the light fixtures, up or down the wall, and possibly in the basement, in an attempt to determine where they leave the dwelling as well as where the enter the garage?

 

[Afrowookie]

I disconnected the neutral(white) and hot(black) from the neutral bundle and the switch itself, these two wires are bigger gauge than the rest of the wires. It is here where I connected the tone generator wires red on white and black on black. I did not do the red in this romex because although I can see it it is not used and I can barely see it let alone have access to it.

I have neglected in going further than the wall and directly at the said light fixtures, and receptacles. I will definitely do that tomorrow and try to determine where this wire goes throughout the house and maybe find where where it leaves the house. I'll mention again that I did check all the conduits I can find on the house and garage and neither came up with the tone.

 

[Snoonyb]

Thanks.

It is often the practice at the time of the foundation pour to place conduit within the forms, which can subsequently be hidden behind drywall.

Where the subpanel you have is totally disassociated and occurred later in the occupancy.

If the tracer follows to the recep. you mentioned, it would be a place to look for abandoned conductors.

Continuity can be read through light bulbs so that may be an indicator for the continuity, and removing the lamping in both fixtures will break that.

 

[nealtw]

White is common thru out the system so that could give you a signal and adds no usable info.

 

[Afrowookie]

Can I hook up the tone generator on just the black and see what that gives me?

 

[nealtw]

That is what I have seen in videos.

I would be interested mostly in the red wire as it may been broke off by accident. But locating where red and black go would be a good start.

 

[nealtw]

If you can find the first place the black wire goes you should find the red wire there.

 

[Snoonyb]

Can I hook up the tone generator on just the black and see what that gives me?

Yes, and if the recp. you mentioned earlier is the next closest box in the line of you tone, then you will probably find the red conductor there as well.

When you open the recep. box look for the same identifiers you used to describe the romex in the light switch box.

Whether you find the red or not, you had established continuity with a black and white conductor too the light fixtures.

So now you need to establish if by isolating the black and white in the recep. box, you can again establish the tone at the light fixture/s, with either or both the black and white conductors.

Once you have established individual conductor continuity then you can establish connecting to the switch.

 

[Afrowookie]

So I fiddled with the with my Fluke again today and this is what I did. I isolated each wire this time by using tone generator and putting the red clip on each wire white, black and red(I was mistaken thinking there wasn't enough wire protruding to clamp onto, but there was) and the black clip always on the copper wire(ground). I did separately with each wire and then using the probe to trace each wire.

What I found was that both the white and black still goes out to the light fixtures and the red does not. Also found out at least I know where the wire goes into the garage. If you look at the conduits from my previous pics it is the conduit with the smaller box. The red is not detected up to that point either and like I thought before that romex does go to the receptacle in the garage. But it was still a smaller gauge than the on the suspect switch side.

Another discovery this time was that while trying to find out where the wire goes from the switch, I thought it was going to a receptacle that is below and on the other side of the partition wall from the switch. So I took the recpt out to look at the wires and they were smaller gauge with no red wire. So I proceeded further and then I found out that underneath the register below the switch I found the elusive junction box that everyone keeps mentioning.

Tomorrow I will break open the junction box and try to determine exactly where the romex is leaving the house. It seems to me that the bigger gauge wire goes to that junction box and then turns into the normal smaller size and it seems as the wire is going out towards the back of the house and maybe underneath the deck, then underground and coming back through that conduit into the garage.

 

[Snoonyb]

Isn't this fun!

So now you have some incite to the process.

The downside to all this, it is still not code compliant to reconnect the switch and power those light fixtures, however, a solution was provided on pg14 post #131, or some configuration of.

 

[nealtw]

So the wires are going to the lights but the lights don't work.

It does sound like you have made good progress.

And like Snoonyb mentioned, it will be about making it code compliant,

Can you open this garage box up again and look to see if anything looks strange about this set up

 

[nealtw]

When you hooked up to the white wire, did you check to see if the signal showed up on unrelated white wires in the house, If not it might mean it could be a switch leg.

In this picture we see the wight 12 gauge going to a wire nut with a newer wire pigtail going to the other nut. That does not make sense.

If it is a switch leg, the power would be coming from the garage on the black and going back on the white

If there was a timer in place it would likely need a neutral to operate so there would be pigtail needed for that.

Someone who didn't understand it may have wired it wrong when the timer was removed.

Wired wrong on a bad day could have supplied 240 volts.

 

[Afrowookie]

Back again.

The above pics of the wiring has since been changed and cleaned up a little but still hasn't changed anything regarding the outer garage lights.

Wiring looks like this now.

Upon further inspection of the junction box, i thought the the wiring of the switch connected to the receptacle behind the partition wall wear the switch is located and the romex ran out towards the back of the house and to the garage. Appears I have been mistaken, looks like the switch goes right to this junction box and out towards front and then towards the garage. The recept behind the wall is still connected on that circuit somehow because the breaker of that switch is the same breaker. Anywho here is the pic of the junction box, both the romex's from the switch and going out from the junction box are the same gauge and both have red wire not connected at all.

From that junction box the romex seems to go towards the front of the house. It also has black sheathing like the one showing going to the bottom of the garage recept. but no sign of red wire on the garage recept side. Checked it with my Fluke Networks from junction box to conduit with small box and I get a signal.

Am I safe to say that my next step is to check for continuity from the junction box to the garage receptacle by twisting the black and white together and checking with a multimeter?

 

[Snoonyb]

In the 2nd photo the appears to be a trace grnd., conductor, so when you are taking about a continuity check, the grnd conductor connected to either the black or white will give you a truer reading.

 

[Afrowookie]

Good call, will do that.

 

[nealtw]

You still need to find where this wire connects to your wire in the house.

 

[WyrTwister]

Thanks for all the replies.

I will try to answer all the questions.

1) I know a little or enough about electrical to injure or kill myself. Lol In other words I know the basics and don't have a lot of experience with it, only wiring light fixtures, receptacles and switches and the sort. Not wire tracing.

2) I do have a digital multimeter and a voltage tester.

3) Both conduits enter the garage on the same side between the garage and house and about 1-2 feet apart. I'm not sure what you mean by termination, (inexperience). I'm pretty sure the big conduit goes in the fuse panel for the garage and as for the smaller one, must be for the two lights at the front of garage.

4) I am pretty sure I tied the Neutral back into the switch. Did I do it properly? I don't know. lol. I will have to check it again. Also for all I know the old timer switch could have still been working fine.

5) All switches and receptacles has a function as normal with or without a switch. It is only this one switch that appears to do nothing and only one set of lights (front garage) that has no way to turn on. So put two and two together leads me to believe that those lights are tied into that switch.

I was thinking about getting the Sperry Wire Tracer for this problem, would this help in this case or do I even need it?

Traditional single pole toggle switches have 2 terminals and perhaps a 3rd , green terminal for earth ground .

You may have a white wire going to it , but it is not a neutral . A traditional single pole toggle switch does not accept / use a neutral .

Your timer switch might have ( a dimmer MIGHT also ) .

God bless
Wyr

 

[nealtw]

Traditional single pole toggle switches have 2 terminals and perhaps a 3rd , green terminal for earth ground .

You may have a white wire going to it , but it is not a neutral . A traditional single pole toggle switch does not accept / use a neutral .

Your timer switch might have ( a dimmer MIGHT also ) .

God bless
Wyr

That we haven't figured out yet. we don't know if it is a switch leg from the garage or powered from the house.