Joints to use in a lintel for French doors

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nealtw

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Let me catch up, I think I read all of it.
Joist so you know, there is no header over that window, that junk is just filler.
A header is held up in Canada with what some call cripple and others call a jack, In the USA, they use trimmers.
As your door is more than five feet wide, you need 2 under each end. If the post you speak of is the original corner of the building I would treat that as untouchable. It is not only supporting the corner but also what ever is holding up above what was cut away for the small addition.
So for a double 2' 6" door the header 69 inches long. It wants to be tight against the cut studs above.
Below the header we would like to have a sill 1 1/2 x 4 and still have 83" to the floor..

So ceiling height, height of drywall you want to leave.
Is there a sill at the floor or do the studs go right past the floor.
Top of studs, do they go past the floor above or stop at the floor. Open a metal close hanger and poke up there and feel around.

Plan for deck or porch on the outside?
Plan for roof or shelter on the outside?

To deal with the angle brace that will be cut out, we could use new 2x4 and add plywood to the inside in the method we do for stress walls for earthquakes;)
 

nealtw

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What I forgot to mention is the the 69 inches is the min, you would run it long enough to butt into a full length original stud and the cripples would have to go all the way down to the sill plate in the basement.
 

bud16415

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The big question for the pro’s is what is the best way to proceed with carrying the load during the stud removal until he gets the header in place. Is there now enough shown to make a call or should he remove more insulation.

I would like to see an inside picture of the whole area from as far back as you can get.
 

nealtw

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The big question for the pro’s is what is the best way to proceed with carrying the load during the stud removal until he gets the header in place. Is there now enough shown to make a call or should he remove more insulation.

I would like to see an inside picture of the whole area from as far back as you can get.
Still waiting to see if it is timber or balloon and I asked about the roof outside as the temp beam could be put there and left as part of the roof structure.
I still think the temp beam, if room doesn't allow for that I would put it upstairs.

Depending on heights he may have to work the header from the outside.

Yes more pictures.
 

Pavesa

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Hi Neal

thanks for the feedback.

I follow all you say I think. I haven't cleared everything out to see below floor level yet to see what everything's attached to down there and as I mentioned, I left the top part of the wall in place to avoid damaging the ceiling. I'll have to clear out down to the bottom of the wall anyway so I'll get on with that and I'll also carefully remove some drywall up to the ceiling on a section between a stud and post F so I can take a look what's up there. I'm a weekend warrior on this though, so it'll be the weekend before I get to it again..

I don't plan a deck or porch at this stage.

"To deal with the angle brace that will be cut out, we could use new 2x4 and add plywood to the inside in the method we do for stress walls for earthquakes"

Can you explain how this would be done?

I had a couple of "engineering" thoughts on this. One is to build a very substantial header between the posts and extend it maybe 5" beyond post F into the stick extension and then drop an angle brace down from that. The other is to build a very substantial header between the posts and build an angle brace to post A maybe it already has one that would do the job. Or do both! See pictures below..

Picture_7.jpg

Picture_8.jpg
 

bud16415

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Does the inside spacing between C&F allow for the 69” Neal was talking about and also 6 inches for the double 2x on each side? So the question is between C&F is there 75” or more?
 

Pavesa

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Hi Bud

yes, the distance between C and F is 77.5"
 

Snoonyb

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Hi Neal"To deal with the angle brace that will be cut out, we could use new 2x4 and add plywood to the inside in the method we do for stress walls for earthquakes"
I'm going to bore you with a little, "historical," clarification here.

The, "angle brace" and I believe you had refereed to as a prop, is a typical version in ballon framing, of the method employed to resist racking and when they occurred in long sections of walls, oppose each other. This style of bracing was replaced in platform framing by diagonal let-in braces which were let into the studs, sil and double top plates and occurred at a max. spacing of 20ft.

Can you explain how this would be done?
I'd be very careful here and really think this through.

Properly employed and installed you should be able to attach to the sil or bottom plate and have a minimum width of 24".

I'd be concerned with the prospect of over stiffening a first floor section and not addressing the 2nd floor.

I had a couple of "engineering" thoughts on this. One is to build a very substantial header between the posts and extend it maybe 5" beyond post F into the stick extension and then drop an angle brace down from that. The other is to build a very substantial header between the posts and build an angle brace to post A maybe it already has one that would do the job. Or do both! See pictures below..[/QUOTE]

This probably would not be necessary unless you were going to attempt to engage the addition in the resistance.

Isn't this just peaches.
 

Pavesa

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As you saw from the photos, the wall outside of where I'm working is very accessible.

I thought I could maybe have a temporary beam running along the outside of the wall attach to the two posts A and F and then securely attach the studs to that for support. Also I think I don't need to cut off studs D and E entirely. I could leave, say, 1.5" out of the 4" depth in place with a corresponding notch out of the header to give some support while I'm getting the header in place. Once the header is in place, I could just cut the studs off from below the header. The header btw is a 5"x4" solid beam salvaged from an old house that I bought locally.
 

Pavesa

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"This probably would not be necessary unless you were going to attempt to engage the addition in the resistance.

Isn't this just peaches."

Yes, the joy of discovery in old houses! I installed a bathroom upstairs and had to reconfigure the whole project because there was a beam where I planned to open a doorway!

My "engineering" ideas wouldn't put any load at all on the addition, it would all be carried on the substantial header beam I have.
 

nealtw

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Hi Bud

yes, the distance between C and F is 77.5"
Does the inside spacing between C&F allow for the 69” Neal was talking about and also 6 inches for the double 2x on each side? So the question is between C&F is there 75” or more?
Two old studs 69" apart including the cripples. If there is another stud that makes that work or we go to the 77.5".
 

nealtw

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"This probably would not be necessary unless you were going to attempt to engage the addition in the resistance.

Isn't this just peaches."

Yes, the joy of discovery in old houses! I installed a bathroom upstairs and had to reconfigure the whole project because there was a beam where I planned to open a doorway!

My "engineering" ideas wouldn't put any load at all on the addition, it would all be carried on the substantial header beam I have.
where did you find the beam in the upstairs?
 

nealtw

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Hi Neal

thanks for the feedback.

I follow all you say I think. I haven't cleared everything out to see below floor level yet to see what everything's attached to down there and as I mentioned, I left the top part of the wall in place to avoid damaging the ceiling. I'll have to clear out down to the bottom of the wall anyway so I'll get on with that and I'll also carefully remove some drywall up to the ceiling on a section between a stud and post F so I can take a look what's up there. I'm a weekend warrior on this though, so it'll be the weekend before I get to it again..

I don't plan a deck or porch at this stage.

"To deal with the angle brace that will be cut out, we could use new 2x4 and add plywood to the inside in the method we do for stress walls for earthquakes"

Can you explain how this would be done?

I had a couple of "engineering" thoughts on this. One is to build a very substantial header between the posts and extend it maybe 5" beyond post F into the stick extension and then drop an angle brace down from that. The other is to build a very substantial header between the posts and build an angle brace to post A maybe it already has one that would do the job. Or do both! See pictures below..
Somewhere there is a beam or a wall holding up the floor upstairs and you never want cut into anything you don't have to , stay within the 77.5 inches.

On houses that have ship lap or boards for sheeting under the siding all usually have angle braces, when we have cut into those the engineers or city inspectors will ask for that sheeting be replaced on each side of the cut out with plywood. As the outside section of the wall is less than eighty inches that would be no benefit. You could strip more drywall on the inside and after insulating just add plywood to the inside to make it the same thickness as the old wall. But if the lean to addition at the side of this is sheeted with plywood or has an angle brace in it, non would be needed.
Get us the measurement to the drywall you left before you remove it. It is a good idea to leave it there if you can.
 

bud16415

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I personally wouldn’t use the old 5x4 beam. I would opt for something wider and built from 2x stock with plywood between to make the header come out to the old stock dims. Likewise I would rip the trimmers from 2x6 stock to match the width of the old stock and long enough to go below the floor if needed until they were sitting solid. Go with C&F and add two trimmers to the inside of each and you would have a rough opening of 71.5. If that is too wide throw in another to get 70”. Get your header made up of 2x8 or 2x10 and then attach a 2x6 or greater all the way across the tops of everything A thru F 2 long deck screws into each stud and post. Now cut your studs off and pry them back in off the sheathing and then get your header in place. You may have to fill in the gap below the opening that the new door will sit on. the very last step I would take is go outside and screw into the new frame the sheathing and the siding. Then from the inside cut out the opening.

I wouldn’t even worry about that lost angle brace that corner is now braced by the addition beside it as well.
 

nealtw

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On the out side near the soffet you have a white trim board, what exactly is that, Real wood nailed to sheeting or right to the studs if you can tell. What are the measurements of that, how many nails into each stud if you can see them?
 

nealtw

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Have you measured outside from the window over to the corner to make sure you are looking at the right studs on the inside.
 

Pavesa

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Thanks for the thought on those boards below the soffet Neil.

I took some measurements and there are 2 wooden boards face-to-face, each 1" thick x 16" high. They're original to the house. They're very heavily painted over obviously, and I couldn't see any nail marks. It is possible that the inner one was attached first and then the outer one nailed to it. I have some nice plated 6" screws I could put through both boards to make sure they're nicely attached to the studs and the posts?
 

nealtw

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I think if you do that a couple screws in each stud and posts as well as the upper floor joists is nailed to them if not let in. I think all that counts as the temp beam. Good to cut after that.
I would plan on pre drilling part of the way, that stuff will be hard, an impact driver will almost be a must.

The reason I asked about the deck outside is because of the window on the other wall you won't be able to drop it the required 6" for solid surface deck.
So you will want to make it out of some sort of slated deck over treated umber framing.

In order to do that and get a proper instullation for the door the ledger wants to be in place before the door goes in. We will talk about proper installation.

The window downstairs also stops you from building a free standing deck as well as digging one hole instead of 4.
 

Pavesa

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Hi All

been a while since I posted my questions on installing some French windows. First I should clear up that they're patio doors - seemed to have a brainstorm and mixed up patio and French doors!

The picture below is the final installation with the supporting woodwork exposed.

At the top is the old 4"x 5" beam I bought with the cut off studs sitting on top of it. On the right, the beam is attached to post F in the drawing I originally posted. There's an L at the back of the house which casts shade so I wanted the doors as far to the right as possible so the beam is attached with a really heavy duty old hinge made of 3/8" steel with a 1/2" diameter joining pin attached to post F. To the left of the doors the beam rests on one of the original 3"x4" (actual dimensions) studs removed from the wall which runs to the support beam at ground level and is screwed to stud C on my drawing. The beam then continues with another of the heavy duty hinges attaching to post A on the extreme left and there are really tight mortice joints attaching it to stud B and to stud C. Above the window, the beam is screwed to one of the lining boards of the house which is in one section for the full width of the doors and is 7/8" thick and about 12" high. This board is also screwed to the studs above the doors.

The original wall had a diagonal bracing piece at the bottom right of where the doors are, so I thought I should reproduce this somewhere in the construction and you can see this at the top left, bolted into post A, morticed into stud B and fitting tightly up against the top of stud C where it bolts to the underside of the beam.

I had quite a gap underneath the beam, so I decided to use it to add more structural support. You can see just above the top frame of the window there is a header which is one of the original 3"x4" studs I took out from the wall which is bolted through spacer pieces and shims (the new wood) into the beam. On the right the header rests on the supporting lumber of the door frame and is screwed into post F with 2 6" screws. On the left it rests on a piece of stud which is screwed (4 screws) to the side of the stud which is attached to stud C.

There was no movement at all in the wall when I cut out studs D and E after installing the beam. Also, as discussed earlier, I put 6" screws through the 16" exterior boards at the top of the wall through into the studs to give support after cutting off the studs and they're still there.

Thanks for all the advice, I really appreciate the thoughts as I've gone along..

P1010744.jpg
 

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