my garage roof.......yikes

Discussion in 'Roofing and Siding' started by SS66, Aug 6, 2009.

  1. Aug 6, 2009 #1

    SS66

    SS66

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    Well this is my first post. We have owned our home for almost 6 years. The home was built in May of 1969. We hired the US inspect company for the property inspection and for the most part it was a good experience. The only frustration came about with the roof which passed the inspection. The previous home owner advised us and the inspector the garage roof had some sagging which they had repaired. The inspector told us the roof was OK and the reinforcements looked to be done well. Within the first 18 months we found out from 4 contractors the roof was shot. So we replaced the roof. This involved a removal of two layers and new decking. The first layer was wood shingles followed by the standard composite shingle. All the contractors stated the roof shingles were dried out because of lack of felt between the two layers of roofing materials. To say the least we were not very happy.

    Fast forward almost 6 years making our new roof about 4.5 years old. We started to paint the house. In doing so we noticed the south side of the garage roof had some sag in the trussel area. We had also noticed this Spring a bowing out of the facia board. My intial thought on the facia board and or guttering not being nailed directly into the trussel ends and became loose over time. After the removal of the guttering and looking closely at the south side of the roof we were concerned because of the sag and a high spot.

    Seems, the work on reinforcing the roof 6 years earlier was not all done in the same manner. I will need to add pics to better explain the situation. I have also noticed the garage roof has 3 ridge vents without any sofits in the underside eves area. Looks as though the repair group reinforced all the trussels with 2x6's on the Southside of the garage. On the North side they started out reinforcing all the trussels until they cracked one trussel. They then reinforced it with a 2x6 and then cracked next trussel. After they reinforced the second trussel in the same manner they then decided not to attempt and raise the final 4 trussels on the North side. Instead, they choose to run a 2x6 across the final four trussles and support them with 2x8 from the floor on the first and fourth trussel. Looks like they left the last 6 trussels in the original sagging postion. I have to say we are not very happy and wonder if it will be possible to fix this correctly?

    We are left wondering what our 250 dollar inspection did for us in this roof nightmare. Then on top of that the roofing company never advised us about the sagging problem when stripping and redecking the roof. Anyway, our first post and boy are we having fun. Again I will post some pics and hopefully shed a little light and advise on our roofing problem. :eek:
     
  2. Aug 6, 2009 #2

    oldognewtrick

    oldognewtrick

    oldognewtrick

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    It would really help if you posted some pics. Is the sagging you are experiencing new or just newly noticed. Have you gotten up on the roof. If so is it bouncy or can you feel movement of the decking.

    Have you contacted the roofing company that did the install? Might be a good time to get them out to look at the situation.

    A home inspector can uncover a lot of problems but sometimes hidden problems couldn't be identified by anyone. You might get a structural engineer to come take a look. Should be about the cost of a home inspection but they could define a scope of repair for your garage structure. It would be money well spent.

    My 2 cents.:cents:

    And welcome to the forum!
     
  3. Aug 7, 2009 #3

    SS66

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    Old dog new trick,

    I am going to try and add some pics on this garage roof. I will admit I do not always get the roofing lingo down but hopefully my pictures will fill in the language barrier going forward. My trick will be learning the roofing language.

    I might note I think my roof was built with out preformed trusses. Meaning I think they call it a stick roof? Anyway, Let me see if I can load some pics....
     
  4. Aug 7, 2009 #4

    SS66

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    How do I get the pics to load.......... anyone? Thanks in advance to those that reply.

    Chevelle Guy
     
  5. Aug 7, 2009 #5

    dakuda

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    Pictures attached

    exterior north side high and lows.JPG

    exterior north side sag.JPG

    exterior NW corner roof sag.JPG

    exterior South front side of garage.JPG

    exterior Nside facia board bowing.jpg
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2009
  6. Aug 7, 2009 #6

    dakuda

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    more pictures

    exterior Nside garage facia bowI.jpg

    exterior Nside roof with bow & sag.JPG

    exterior Nside sag in roof.jpg

    attic above Sgarage side floor joist.JPG

    attic firewall ridge support.jpg
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2009
  7. Aug 7, 2009 #7

    dakuda

    dakuda

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    even more pictures

    attic NEcorner exssesive insaltion.jpg

    attic NW 2x6x8 sag area reinforced.JPG

    attic NW sag area broken 2x6 repairs .JPG

    attic West exterior wall bracing ridge and ext wall.jpg
     
  8. Aug 7, 2009 #8

    SS66

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    Chris,

    Thanks for the assistance on the pic posting. I have the company that did the roof coming out today at noon. I think the pics do show some of the problems but it looks more noticable standing there looking at everything.

    Old dog new trick, We did not really every notice the sagging on the north side other than the bowing and outward leaning of the facia board. I assumed at that time it was a damaged facia board. It was not until we were on a ladder taking of the guttering for a closer look at the facia board that we the roof line and sag possibly meant something more problematic.

    I guess I assumed a home inspection and roofing compainie(s) bidding on the job would have noticed the problems. I also now at hind site need to ask more questions to inspectors and contractors when they pass or say something is good etc. If I had sen or noticed this trouble during the inspection or reroof I would have asked the necessary and or dumb questions. I think this all could have been avoided on multiple levels.

    Anyone, want to give some thoughts or insite feel free. And again thanks for the pics post Chris.

    Chevelle Guy
     
  9. Aug 7, 2009 #9

    oldognewtrick

    oldognewtrick

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    How did the meeting go with your roof installer? Looks like the fascia is pulling away from the rafter tails. If the rafter tails are deteriorated you will have to sister onto the rafter and create a new tail. The knee wall was added after construction of the roof, usually when you add a knee wall its to stabilize a existing structure, trying to remove deflection of a roof deck can cause other problems.

    It looks like in one of the pics a discoloration of some of the insulation, have you been experiencing any roof leaks?
     
  10. Aug 7, 2009 #10

    SS66

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    Anyone,

    following this thread. I had a visit from the roofing company today. They feel it is not their repsonsibilty in notifying a homeowner if they see a structural problem or not. The owner told me they were hired to remove 2 layers and put a new roof with decking on. Which he felt they did to his companies satisfaction.

    We looked at the reinforcement that passed an inspection for home purchase. He felt it was not exactly what he would have done if he did the work. He did not agree with the North side support system laying on a wall header in that section of the garage. He stated that he did not see any sagging that was caused by his work.

    I tried to stress to him if it was brought to my attention by his workers I would have halted the decking until I could get someone to correct the possible problem. I did not want to upset him but wanted an open line of communication and understanding. I stated I was with the understanding that a bi-lingual speaking superviser was to be on the site daily. Unfortuantely it did not happen and even if the workers noticed the mentioned issues they couldn't speak english.

    But that is a mute point with the contractor because he feels the roof is installed correctly. He said I could have a structural engineer make an inspection but they know code and not roofing. He also mentioned was this an issue because I was thinking of selling the house? I stated that was not in the near or future plans. If I chose to would it then become a sell repair issue or documented disclosure in the contract. I just put it simply, I want it like anything to be right and I didn't think this qualified as correctly installed.

    So, the end of our conversation was left with you got a 5700.00 roof installed correctly that would be 11000.00 dollars in todays market. He said I could bring out an engineer and he would think they would agree with him. His only request was if I choose to do that please allow him to be present. Please, I hope I don't offend any folks here but I think sometimes, If you want it done right do it yourself. Again, no offense to anyone on this site.

    I am now lost as to the my and the contractors reasoning for what I got as correct final roofing installation. I know their are more knowledgable roofing folks here but am I being unreasonable or asking to much? I will contact US Inspect and ask them to add some insite to this ugly North site of my garage roof. No offense to anyone but please feel free to advise me if I am being to rediculous in my thoughts and ideas regarding the matter.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2009
  11. Aug 7, 2009 #11

    SS66

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    Old dog,

    Thanks for the reply. If the discoloration in the insulation is mainly due to dust from the removal of wood shingles and composite. I got up in the attic and cleaned up quite a bite of the larger pieces of shingle debre etc.

    Regarding the facia board. I discussed that also with the contractor. He said his guys would have never noticed that pulling away unless if they had the guttering down. I did mention to him that I couldn't understand why a builder would have a 2x6 running the length behind the faica board. He said that was incorrect but he did not have an answer to that.

    He was and said to the end he really did not see the sagging concerns I was trying to point out. He also thought the bowed facia board was nothing I should worry about. As mentioned in the earlier post he felt the roof was correct and anything beyond that was not his crews responsiblity. Still a little bewildered on his final thoughts.
     
  12. Aug 7, 2009 #12

    SS66

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    anyone.....anyone..... anyone.....buehler.....buehler? :)
     
  13. Aug 8, 2009 #13

    oldognewtrick

    oldognewtrick

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    S.S. I meant to get back to you before but the misses said we had to do our weekly dine out routine, and well she trumps the INTERNET, so...

    When I read the response of your roofer about the responsibility to relay structural problems, well my head exploded! What on this green earth does he think is his responsibility? He has a fiducial responsibility to inform you of any problems that may be uncovered. Which means that if he covers up a known issue he is an accessory to this problem. I cannot imagine that a roofing contractor would just simply say that it wasn't in their scope of work to report a known issue. Once again(insert head explosion).

    Also, part of a roof installation is to install all the components of a roof system. Shingle MFG require this to warrant their products. By not providing you with a functioning roof vent system he has compromised your material warranty, simply..you do not have a material warranty. This is not a suggestion but a requirement. I am really sorry that he has responded in this manner, but there are a lot of qualified, reputable roofing contractors that are interested in providing a installation that is of the highest standards.

    I would once again suggest hiring a structural engineer and get their opinion of what needs to be corrected. This will be money well spent on your part and give you a leg to stand on if they have a course of action to repair and what liability your roofing installer should bear.
     
  14. Aug 8, 2009 #14

    oldognewtrick

    oldognewtrick

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    Also, if they couldn't see the fascia pulling away when they were redecking and installaing the new roof, then they surely couldn't see the ladder to climb up on the roof.... seeeze.......plus they over hung the decking past the fascia, sloppy work.


    OK rant off.
     
  15. Aug 8, 2009 #15

    SS66

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    Old Dog New Trick

    Thanks for your insite to my pictures and thread. I am going to discuss this with someone in the engineering expertise and background as you have mentioned. I again I am willing and want to keep an open line of communication with the contractor owner and be reasonable with my questions and concerns. A couple of the pics got skewed on the load and would be a real head turner to any home owner that would be in our current position. If you intereted I can resend them if you want to see them clearly. My email is albbies1@sbcglobal.net.

    I have contacted US Inspect Services and the contractor to date. US Inspect wants to discuss it further on Monday. Right now I am working the roofing issues and will continue to mover forward in the repainting of our home. Hopefully we will all come to and understanding and agreement on how to move forward and correct this problem.

    Chevelle Guy :beer:
     
  16. Aug 14, 2009 #16

    SS66

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    Update,

    I have had a framing contractor come to our house to review the north side of the garage. He has stated the correct way to address the problem is to remove the new shingles and decking to open up the roof. His approach and fix for the problems is to remove any rafters in question or sistered due to cracks. Currently 2 are cracked and sistered. He also stated the middle section of the sofit on the north side is not attached to all the rafters. He said this is why the facia board bows outwards causing the guttering to lean away from the house. He also wondered why the Inspector etc. had not noticed the garage roof was not properly ventilated in the sofit areas. I just recieved the estimate which is around 3900.00 dollars.

    I have also had the roofing company out that did the work 4.5 years earlier. They said anything wrong with the roof was and any framing issues noticed or unnoticed is not under their relm of responsibilities etc. I asked if they should or could not have seen this when stripping and redecking the roof. He said again that it is not his workers responsibility to check or inspect the structure. He said we have paid for a roof replacement and that is what they provided. My contention with him was I still believe this must have been noticed by them when putting down the decking. Bottom line from roofing company is, "Not their responsiblilty.

    Also, When We bought the house we contracted for a fee US Inspect for the property inspection in which they inspected and passed the roof and reframing support of the ridge line. First, They said I replaced the roof without their ability to inspect. I told them 4 contractors stated and explained why the roof was bad. US Inspect said we don't really know the condition of the roof and many roofers are out to make money. Secondly, How do we know that the framing work has changed or worsened since the original inspection? I told them nothing has changed except for the new roof. US Inspect then said again, " We were never given the opportunity to inpsect that so called bad roof. So basically my 250.00 inspection will eventually cost our family between 10,000 to 11,000 dollars.

    I assured US Inspect I will use my resources available to notify friends, and others in the business of buying and selling homes not to use US Inspect..... period! I have family member that purchased over 100 homes in the past 1.5 years. I assured US Inspect that I will get my dollars back over time and then some with my new found energy they provided. They did not seem to concerned because of the overall population in the US. I told them as long as I know my family members and friends will not ever use US Inspect I will find some satisfaction in knowing other Inspection services had been used.

    Anyway, I have another framing contractor looking at the roof this coming Monday. If I had not have hit a bump in the road of life regarding my health this past year I would have gladly tackled this project myself. But sometimes you got to play the cards that were dealt and so be it. Anyway, just an update to my garage roof to share. Old Dog new trick I will drop you a pic of my 66 etc.

    Cheers
    Chevelle Guy
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2009
  17. Aug 15, 2009 #17

    oldognewtrick

    oldognewtrick

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    Maybe InspectorD can help me out here but doesn't a home inspection usually include photos to document the inspection?
     
  18. Aug 15, 2009 #18

    inspectorD

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    Usually, but from here, my lawyer siut is at the cleaners trying to get out the stains.:hide:
    Since I am an inspector myself, of course my opinion will be evaluated as "on their side". Guess it goes with the territory.
    But as much as I do not like it...they have a point. When you get an inspection, it is usually only good for a year, but that also depends on your state laws. The problems you found should have called for an engineer to look at the issue. So in this case that may have been at fault for not recommending further evaluation. Don't get me started on larger inspection Companies, They have Lawyers.
    But when you have work done to the home, the next professional owns it. The roofer is the next professional. If there is an issue with structure or cracked rafters, they need to look at it. If they are going to add new weight to a roof and change what is there, they need to be sure it is able to handle the changes. They are not only responsible for the roof, but what it is attached to. This is why real professionals are so expensive....experience. Where was the building official?
    These are points that need to looked at by your lawyer and another professional Home inspector or expert. If that is the route you choose, make sure you have documentation of everything as it progressed.

    I hate lawsuits, however I also do not like shoddy work from professionals.
     
  19. Aug 28, 2009 #19

    SS66

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    Update,

    Thanks for everyone input and comments. At this point I have discussed the matter with US Inspect and the roofer. As mentioned previously neither party feels they have any responsibilty in the framing or roofs current condition.

    I have two bids for correcting and repairing the North side of the garage. They range from 4000 to 5000 dollars requiring the roof to be stripped down to the rafters on the N side. Each bid includes rafter replacement and sofit rebuild with new decking and shingles. I had been advised I could most likely have a case against the parties. But it also means how much do you want to spend in legal fees. Meaning it might be cheaper just to fix the roof and move on.

    Right now we are painting the house and it has our current attention to get it completed before the cold weather sets in. The gutter is still off the house on the N side of the garage which concerns me a bit. Looks as though the water is not getting in the sofit or under the shingles. We are going to do something to correct the problem as soon as we are finished with the exterior painting. Again, just a where we are in the situation.

    Thanks
    Chevelle Guy
     
  20. Nov 17, 2009 #20

    oldognewtrick

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    Chevelle Guy, any update?
     

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