New Service Entrance

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sciens

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So, took it upon myself to pull permits to install a new service mast, meter socket, main breaker panel and all the while also subpaneling the existing fusebox. Main reason is because I want to install a generator to keep power going during outages for a data rack I installed in my detached shop that will host business applications for my IT outsourcing company. We lose power for about 30 days out of the year, usually 7-14 days consecutively.

The old service entrance is shotty at best. I pulled permits and nothing in this house is permitted and records show it was built in 1926. All the interior wiring is ungrounded, only neutral and hot wires on branch circuits.

46074294_372500446824552_559699569416339456_n.jpg


46110753_257223531635216_9196978281704849408_n.jpg


Theres double taps on the range fuse (top right).

46136146_971864996330494_2234842260598423552_n.jpg


46086808_903201930068532_4299509223915520000_n.jpg


46057164_282950555684660_3108832800703250432_n.jpg


So thats the old, here is the new thus far:

45917316_347398086066956_2147540131114909696_n.jpg


46078328_2139536026297892_9149834160863444992_n.jpg


46204143_2207464689509984_6921354396097839104_n.jpg


539113d1541662106-new-service-entrance-picture1107182321952.jpg


46049531_2181184618875843_3642279300918411264_n.jpg


46187612_2277412332333285_1824150714591477760_n.jpg


46157197_259705474746200_7655453320181448704_n.jpg


The plan is to run the conduit across the wall to where the meter socket is (The top LR has reduction bushings stepping down from 2" to 1-1/2" to 1-1/4". Once its through the wall Ill do some fancy conduit work to make the connection in the existing fusebox.

The EMT between the meter and breaker is long because I am planning to install a generator and a whole-house ATS will go in that spot when I purchase the equipment later down the road.

Couple questions.

Any input? Guidance? Criticisms and corrections?

Once this is basically ready to go, do I disconnect power, subpanel the fusebox and call in the inspection, once its passed call the PoCo for reconnection? I have two inspections on the permit, service and final. Just need clarification so I can coordinate the install with minimal electrical interruption.

Guying.... These are odd.... Any advice on installing them? The PoCo (Pacific Power) specs say the guys need to be 16-24" apart, but ive seen a few that are further apart. Also, with the roof slope one wire will likely be longer than the other to ensure the angle of the wire to mast is at least 45 degrees....

Thank you! Cant wait to hear from you all!
 
Please don't take this as casually critical. I'm saying this to help others who may be contemplating similar projects. If attaching to the apex of the gable end would have achieved the clearance over the surfaces beneath the service drop wires then that might have saved some money and effort by avoiding the need for a service mast.

Guying the service mast: There are guy struts available that can resist pulls from 2 directions by functioning in both tension and compression. I don't know whether that is any help to you or not. By the appearance of the mast in one of your pictures I think that you could anchor your wire guy lines to the ridge in one direction and the eave overhang in the other. Install both anchor points outside the wall line of the house, apply a thorough coating of roofing cement to the point were the anchor hardware actually penetrates the roof, and use stainless steel hardware if possible. These anchor points vibrate in high winds. That is why you want to build them outside the wall line of the house. Then if either one leaks the leak will not be in the attic.

Were is that new horizontal conduit going? Is it going to the old panel? How many breaker slots are in the new panel? Have you considered gutting that old panel and using it only as a junction box to supply the existing loads. There would have to be enough wires in your conduit for all of the circuits in that existing panel but that shouldn't be too many. If you need help calculating the wire sizes I will be happy to help. The sizes may not be the obvious ones because the number of wires in the conduit will exceed 3 current carrying conductors.

If for any reason you cannot do that you may want to consider replacing the existing panel with one with circuit breakers and be done with fuses. Although fuses are often better circuit protection they are a nuisance to change and to keep on hand.

Given that the Po. Co.'s transformer is only the length of your service drop and entry conductors to the new service equipment enclosure you should make a call to the Po. Co.'s engineering department and find out what the available fault current is at your main breaker. There is a possibility that the available fault current exceeds the withstand rating of your Service Disconnecting Means. If it does you may need to order a different main breaker for the new Service Equipment Enclosure. Be prepared to tell them the length of each wire segment; service drop, Service Entry Conductors to the meter enclosure, and Service Entry Conductors from the Meter Enclosure to the Service Disconnecting Means (Main Breaker) terminals; as well as the gauge and material used. They will know what gauge and wire type they used in the drop but they may not have it's length in their records.

That is all I have right now. I'll look forward to hearing back from you.

--
Tom Horne
 
Tom,

Thank you for your reply! Ill respond to your points in order.

If attaching to the apex of the gable end would have achieved the clearance over the surfaces beneath the service drop wires then that might have saved some money and effort by avoiding the need for a service mast.

True, but the PoCo required it be on the closest corner of the house to the power pole. So the meter socket had to go there according to their requirements.

By the appearance of the mast in one of your pictures I think that you could anchor your wire guy lines to the ridge in one direction and the eave overhang in the other. Install both anchor points outside the wall line of the house, apply a thorough coating of roofing cement to the point were the anchor hardware actually penetrates the roof, and use stainless steel hardware if possible. These anchor points vibrate in high winds. That is why you want to build them outside the wall line of the house. Then if either one leaks the leak will not be in the attic.

This is a good idea, however because of the PoCo's design guide, it says the guys need to be 16-24" apart and the service conductors must fall within the angle of the guys.

Section 4.2.2 Figure 5

https://www.pacificpower.net/conten...ers/Electric_Service_Requirements/ESR_CH4.pdf

Were is that new horizontal conduit going?

To the right directly below the old service wires. Ill use an LB and straight pipe to go through the wall where the meter socket is and use a 90* elbow to go down into the fusebox.

How many breaker slots are in the new panel?

I am making the new panel a main disconnect for all my subpanels. It has 8 Spaces and availability for 16 circuits, but I will be using four double pole breakers to fill it as I build out the rest of the property.

Have you considered gutting that old panel and using it only as a junction box to supply the existing loads. There would have to be enough wires in your conduit for all of the circuits in that existing panel but that shouldn't be too many. If you need help calculating the wire sizes I will be happy to help. The sizes may not be the obvious ones because the number of wires in the conduit will exceed 3 current carrying conductors.

I plan to later down the road to replace all the wiring in the house. Currently every branch circuit is ungrounded, so I dont want to have to deal with that headache and thus I am simply subpaneling the fusebox for now.

Given that the Po. Co.'s transformer is only the length of your service drop and entry conductors to the new service equipment enclosure you should make a call to the Po. Co.'s engineering department and find out what the available fault current is at your main breaker. There is a possibility that the available fault current exceeds the withstand rating of your Service Disconnecting Means. If it does you may need to order a different main breaker for the new Service Equipment Enclosure.

The breaker is apporved by the PoCo, 22,000A rated fault current.

Be prepared to tell them the length of each wire segment; service drop, Service Entry Conductors to the meter enclosure, and Service Entry Conductors from the Meter Enclosure to the Service Disconnecting Means (Main Breaker) terminals; as well as the gauge and material used. They will know what gauge and wire type they used in the drop but they may not have it's length in their records.

I have the details and the service and feeder wires are rated and good per code for 200A services. 4/0-4/0-2/0 Aluminum.
 
Sciens

My replies are also in line.
Tom,

Thank you for your reply! Ill respond to your points in order.

True, but the PoCo required it be on the closest corner of the house to the power pole. So the meter socket had to go there according to their requirements.

Did they require the point of attachment of the service drop to be on that corner or were they referring to the meter? Po Cos want the meter to be at the easiest point of access to allow meter reading and servicing.

This is a good idea, however because of the PoCo's design guide, it says the guys need to be 16-24" apart and the service conductors must fall within the angle of the guys.

Section 4.2.2 Figure 5

https://www.pacificpower.net/conten...ers/Electric_Service_Requirements/ESR_CH4.pdf
I was afraid it might be something like that. Just make sure that you provide really solid blocking under the anchor point so it cannot possibly pull out of the roof.

To the right directly below the old service wires. Ill use an LB and straight pipe to go through the wall where the meter socket is and use a 90* elbow to go down into the fusebox.
You may find that a pair of back to back 45 degree bends will help you align the conduit to the enclosure of the original panel. It is hard for me to tell without knowing more than you have time to tell me.

I am making the new panel a main disconnect for all my sub-panels. It has 8 Spaces and availability for 16 circuits, but I will be using four double pole breakers to fill it as I build out the rest of the property.
Since you new panel has no main breaker it cannot have more than 6 total operating handles in it so your 4 breakers should fill the bill. If you are on well water the NEC specifically allows you to have a breaker which is not in the Service Disconnecting Means enclosure to supply your pump. That is to keep it available for first aid firefighting. It does not appear that could do any good in your situation because with the service point on the house you don't have anywhere else to mount it which would distance it from a fire in the house.

I plan to later down the road to replace all the wiring in the house. Currently every branch circuit is ungrounded, so I don't want to have to deal with that headache and thus I am simply sub-paneling the fuse box for now.
What do you plan to do about that double tapped circuit off of the Stove's Fused Pull Out terminals?

The breaker is approved by the PoCo, 22,000A rated fault current.
If the Po Co has specifically excepted that breakers withstand rating then you should be all right. Did you get it in writing? Field personnel sometimes say things that the Po Co will not back up.

I have the details and the service and feeder wires are rated and good per code for 200A services. 4/0-4/0-2/0 Aluminum.
As long as 200 Amperes will cover your present and future needs all is well.

--
Tom Horne
 
Did they require the point of attachment of the service drop to be on that corner or were they referring to the meter? Po Cos want the meter to be at the easiest point of access to allow meter reading and servicing.

The estimator specified a service mast. Now that I think about it I COULD have ran a 45* conduit along the eaves to the top of the gable, but I'm too far along to undo all this work thus far....

I was afraid it might be something like that. Just make sure that you provide really solid blocking under the anchor point so it cannot possibly pull out of the roof.

Im gonna screw in some 4x4 cross braces between the rafters where the terminations will be made. Should be pretty solid.

You may find that a pair of back to back 45 degree bends will help you align the conduit to the enclosure of the original panel. It is hard for me to tell without knowing more than you have time to tell me.

I have 150 days or so left on the permit. WHat do you need? I need to come in through the top of the fusebox so the 90* elbow seemed like the best bet.

Since you new panel has no main breaker it cannot have more than 6 total operating handles in it so your 4 breakers should fill the bill.

It has a 200A main breaker.

If you are on well water the NEC specifically allows you to have a breaker which is not in the Service Disconnecting Means enclosure to supply your pump. That is to keep it available for first aid firefighting. It does not appear that could do any good in your situation because with the service point on the house you don't have anywhere else to mount it which would distance it from a fire in the house.

This is a strange point. Whats the code refrence? I do have well water but its in a separate pump house to the right up a hill about 75-feet.

What do you plan to do about that double tapped circuit off of the Stove's Fused Pull Out terminals?

I was honestly hoping it would be overlooked due to grandfathering the existing ungrounded wiring.... The double tap goes to the detatched garage which I plan to swing to its own breaker in the main panel.

If the Po Co has specifically excepted that breakers withstand rating then you should be all right. Did you get it in writing? Field personnel sometimes say things that the Po Co will not back up.

I will investigate this more...

As long as 200 Amperes will cover your present and future needs all is well.

This should suffice for the long foreseeable future.

Thanks a ton Tom!
 
I'm away from home right now. I will be able to answer when I get home. You can find it in the section which limits a Service Disconnecting Means to 6 throws of the hand.

--
Tom Horne
 
So, took it upon myself to pull permits to install a new service mast, meter socket, main breaker panel and all the while also subpaneling the existing fusebox. Main reason is because I want to install a generator to keep power going during outages for a data rack I installed in my detached shop that will host business applications for my IT outsourcing company. We lose power for about 30 days out of the year, usually 7-14 days consecutively.

The old service entrance is shotty at best. I pulled permits and nothing in this house is permitted and records show it was built in 1926. All the interior wiring is ungrounded, only neutral and hot wires on branch circuits.

46074294_372500446824552_559699569416339456_n.jpg


46110753_257223531635216_9196978281704849408_n.jpg


Theres double taps on the range fuse (top right).

46136146_971864996330494_2234842260598423552_n.jpg


46086808_903201930068532_4299509223915520000_n.jpg


46057164_282950555684660_3108832800703250432_n.jpg


So thats the old, here is the new thus far:

45917316_347398086066956_2147540131114909696_n.jpg


46078328_2139536026297892_9149834160863444992_n.jpg


46204143_2207464689509984_6921354396097839104_n.jpg


539113d1541662106-new-service-entrance-picture1107182321952.jpg


46049531_2181184618875843_3642279300918411264_n.jpg


46187612_2277412332333285_1824150714591477760_n.jpg


46157197_259705474746200_7655453320181448704_n.jpg


The plan is to run the conduit across the wall to where the meter socket is (The top LR has reduction bushings stepping down from 2" to 1-1/2" to 1-1/4". Once its through the wall Ill do some fancy conduit work to make the connection in the existing fusebox.

The EMT between the meter and breaker is long because I am planning to install a generator and a whole-house ATS will go in that spot when I purchase the equipment later down the road.

Couple questions.

Any input? Guidance? Criticisms and corrections?

Once this is basically ready to go, do I disconnect power, subpanel the fusebox and call in the inspection, once its passed call the PoCo for reconnection? I have two inspections on the permit, service and final. Just need clarification so I can coordinate the install with minimal electrical interruption.

Guying.... These are odd.... Any advice on installing them? The PoCo (Pacific Power) specs say the guys need to be 16-24" apart, but ive seen a few that are further apart. Also, with the roof slope one wire will likely be longer than the other to ensure the angle of the wire to mast is at least 45 degrees....

Thank you! Cant wait to hear from you all!

Is the service mast EMT or rigid conduit ? We always use 2" rigid . If it is 3 - 4 feet above the roof , it is normally strong enough without guys .

The aluminum wire is legal , but we always use copper . Is we mess with existing Al wire , we use Petrox / No-Ox on the terminations .

Without a doubt , I would replace the existing fuse box with a circuit breaker load center . Run 2 hots , a neutral and an earth ground , of appropriate size to it . In conduit , on the exterior . GFCI circuit breakers in said loadcenter will increase the safety with the 2 wire Romex .

Wyr
God bless
 
Is the service mast EMT or rigid conduit ? We always use 2" rigid . If it is 3 - 4 feet above the roof , it is normally strong enough without guys .

It is 2" rigid. The estimator says i need guys because they require them when the mast is more than 65' from the mast and Im ~69 feet.

The aluminum wire is legal , but we always use copper . Is we mess with existing Al wire , we use Petrox / No-Ox on the terminations .

I couldnt find any 2/0 copper for the life of me out here from local suppliers. Plus, its cost effective....

Without a doubt , I would replace the existing fuse box with a circuit breaker load center . Run 2 hots , a neutral and an earth ground , of appropriate size to it . In conduit , on the exterior . GFCI circuit breakers in said loadcenter will increase the safety with the 2 wire Romex .
God bless

Is there a code to quote for using GFCI breakers? It may be easier....
 
Al wire is cheaper , but for no more feet of wire that you used , could not have been a huge difference .

Of course , I can go to any one of 5 electrical supply houses in town and get any type of wire I need .

Did the utility increase the wire size of the service drop ? I went from a round 60 amp meter base to a 200 amo meter base . The utility re-crimped the same tri-plex that had feed the old meter base . So no more weight than had been on the old service .

Wyr
God bless
 
Last edited:
Al wire is cheaper , but for no more feet of wire that you used , could not have been a huge difference .

Of course , I can go to any one of 5 electrical supply houses in town and get any type of wire I need .

I dunnow, 0.77/foot vs 2.41/foot is a pretty big difference even in 50 ft of wire..... (THis was for 2/0 copper vs 4/0 aluminum).

Did the utility increase the wire size of the service drop ? I went from a round 60 amp meter base to a 200 amo meter base . The utility re-crimped the same tri-plex that had feed the old meter base . So no more weight than had been on the old service .

They are not increasing the conductor size... Im guessing they arent worried about increasing load that much. Also I believe service drop wire is rated for higher temperature since its in open air vs conduit-protected wire, thus higher ampacity.
 
I dunnow, 0.77/foot vs 2.41/foot is a pretty big difference even in 50 ft of wire..... (THis was for 2/0 copper vs 4/0 aluminum).



They are not increasing the conductor size... I'm guessing they aren't worried about increasing load that much. Also I believe service drop wire is rated for higher temperature since its in open air vs conduit-protected wire, thus higher ampacity.
The utility must comply with the National Electrical Safety Code which is different from the National Electrical Code in many respects.

--
Tom Horne
 
I did not really expect the utility to up size the service drop . I was not greatly increasing the load , either .

Any heating from a large load would be on their side of the meter , anyway .

The utility does what they do . I am not going to tell them how to do their part . And the amperage rating for open air is greater . However , voltage drop ( again depending on load ) is the same .

The extra coast of 50' of copper would have been less than $ 100 . Actually , my cost for 2/0 copper THHN is $ 1.90 . Well worth it for me , but what you do is your business .

Best of luck to you :)

Wyr
God bless
 
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