No permits found for installation...

Discussion in 'HVAC' started by o2284200, Apr 11, 2016.

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  1. Apr 11, 2016 #21

    Chris

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    I have a package of six of those bulbs, what are they worth to you? :hide:

    We are the leaders of nonsense.:help:
     
  2. Apr 11, 2016 #22

    Snoonyb

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    That as well as the evacuation of "exempt" coolant, their disposal and SEER, elect. disconnect.
     
  3. Apr 11, 2016 #23

    Chris

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    I hate to see this place in 30 years.
     
  4. Apr 11, 2016 #24

    Snoonyb

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    I'm loading up on Waste Management stock, because when the San Andreas pops, west will be WM and east will be annexed by Arizona and Nevada.:welcome:
     
  5. Apr 11, 2016 #25

    Chris

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    I'll take Arizona please.
     
  6. Apr 11, 2016 #26

    o2284200

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    There are two separate issues that keep arising with one of my two air handlers.

    ISSUE ONE:
    (09/23/2013)
    The air handler fan stopped turning, the lines and floor around the air handler froze up and the a/c had to be turned off for days. I called XYZ, co. and they sent someone out. He examined the system, found and replaced a bad "Evaporator Motor Control Module", which he told me "this motor was known for blowing or going bad". REPAIR ESTIMATE TOTAL = $180 ..PAID IN FULL [Parts: Under warranty 10 years from original install date + Labor: 2 hours @ $90/hour (1 hour to diagnose, 1 hour to pick up part locally and install)].

    (6/2/2015)
    The air handler fan stopped turning, the lines and floor around the same air handler froze up, again. I called XYZ, co. and told them that it appeared that the "Evaporator Motor Control Module" went bad again. XYZ sent someone out, who examined the system, diagnosed nothing wrong, replaced nothing and by the time he left, the system was defrosted and working. SERVICE CALL CHARGE = Labor for 1 hour @ $90...PAID IN FULL! Within 2 hours, the same air handler fan stopped turning, the lines and floor around the air handler froze up, again. I called XYZ, co. back and scheduled someone to come out the next day.

    (6/3/2015)
    XYZ, co. sent someone out, who examined the system, and even though there was no loss of display or sign of a low battery in the thermostat, he said he "replaced battery and fixed loose wire at thermostat."…by the time he left, the system had thawed out and was working. SERVICE CALL CHARGE = labor 1 hour = $90, which I refused to pay.

    (10/2015)
    The air handler fan stopped turning, the lines and floor around the same air handler froze up, again. I called XYZ, co. and told them that it appeared that the "Evaporator Motor Control Module" went bad again. XYZ sent someone out, who examined the system, replaced nothing and agreed with me that the "Evaporator Motor Control Module" went bad again. By the time he left, the system had thawed out and was working. He left without presenting me a bill. The next day, I got a call from XYZ, co with the REPAIR ESTIMATE TOTAL = $300 (Parts: No longer under 10 year warranty, for some reason + Labor).

    Hmm? That's $120 more than the fist time (09/2013), when he charged me $180 to diagnose, pick up and install the part. I called XYZ, co. with some questions, especially about the 10 year warranty on parts no longer being honored. The rep on the phone said she wasn't able to answer my questions and would leave a message for someone, who could to call me back…I neither got a call back nor any further correspondence.

    Fast forward 6 months, to this past week...I get a bill in the mail from XYZ, co. in the amount of $90 for the date of service 11/13/15..."Found Bad Evaporator Motor Control Module"…"Over 90 Days Past Due".

    It seems as if XYZ, co. is trying to set me up for collections and/or a mechanics lien, if possible. F*ck that! If I have any leverage on the XYZ, co, especially for not pulling permits on installation, when required, I want to know!

    Isn't it bad enough, they got $90 out of me for finding NOTHING on 6/2/15, then tried to charge me another $90, the next day 6/3/15, for "replacing a battery in the thermostat" that showed no signs of needing to be replaced and "fixing a loose wire" that showed no signs of being loose, THEN no longer honoring the 10 year warranty on parts...Seriously?

    Your thoughts??

    ISSUE TWO:
    The same air handler keeps clogging and flooding the garage. Actually...Before I could close on the sale of this house in 2012, XYZ, co. had to come out and fix this very issue on the same air handler, which flooded the entire garage. This issue happens each season and has been a PIA. :mad: I believe this issue may be related to not properly installing the drain line...
    [​IMG]

    Instead of going straight into the wall and attaching to the existing drain line, XYZ, co. put a 90 down, a 90 left and a 90 into the wall, then I imagine they had to use at least one more 90 behind the wall to redirect the drain line under the house (my new p-trap)...That's at least four 90's in a very short run, which I believe is where my clogs occur. Also, XYZ installed the drain line without a clean out..Sooo, there's THAT! I keep wondering why each service tech makes a sound of frustration, when they see at this section.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2016
  7. Apr 11, 2016 #27

    slownsteady

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    ...drifting way off topic.

    The devil is in the details, as you can see from Chris's posts. The answer lies in the FL code and if you really want the definitive answer, go to the book. You also would have to define "Complete New HVAC System (see post 12). Could mean that if the ducts didn't move, no worries. Or it could mean anything at all.

    We must've been typing at the same time. My post refers to the conversation above OP's last post.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2016
  8. Apr 11, 2016 #28

    Chris

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    Those drains are a maintenance problem and need to be cleaned or blown out every year or so to keep from clogging up. If you are getting nowhere with that company and they are no longer honoring any warranty I would switch to a new service company. Heck I would anyway if I were having your troubles. In their defense unless you got the same tech each time it is hard to take the customers word for what is wrong although they should listen and at least look into it. (You know how many people out there google a couple things and think they know more than a guy who does this for a living?)

    The problem with this is that you can only try and rectify any issues you personally have with them as in most cases original warranties are non transferable and once you bought that house they were off the hook for anything.

    You do however have a leg to stand on if you have kept all your paperwork from the repairs you paid for that state any sort of warranty, I am pretty sure you have to honor anything you put in writing.

    All in all if it were me I would not do business with them any more. Hopefully you can get this resolved with the owner of their shop and if non you always have small claims court if you have all your backup and proof.

    I really don't think you can do any harm or have any leverage with the permit issue as you didn't own the home then or hire them. If you do your homework and find out they should have pulled a permit you can try and hold that over their head as leverage for honoring the warranty you have with them but don't hold your breath.
     
  9. Apr 12, 2016 #29

    nealtw

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    Perhaps the permit is required because the state got tired of hearing complaints about hacks ripping people off.

    I will tell my story on service companies and drain system
    My friend bought a house with an air handler in the attic. With in 2 weeks of living there they had water coming in the house. Playing havoc on the drywall at the top of a 15 ft high wall.
    I popped over and we found that the one inch pipe with trap in was not draining anything the water running over the tray inside and was in the insulation inside the box and then finding it's way into the duct work..
    So for the quick fix we cut the white pipe and could not clear the line so I removed the pipe completely out of the handler which allowed water to drain in the over flow tray below and it could run out a different pipe.

    That was my temp fix and I told him to get a pro in to fix things up.
    The pro came in and spent hrs trying to unplug the original 1' drain line and replaced the insulation around so many feet of duct work and sold them some expensive light that would kill mold. 2 expensive bulbs per season.
    The pro came in once a year to service the unit.
    Three or four years later, the pro was called in when the water was running down the wall again.
    He replaced the insulation again and fixed the pipe that I had removed, told my friend that the handler was at the end of it's life and sold him a used one that never got installed.

    I went to make the attic access bigger so the new unit would fit. Unit was to big to go between trusses so that was not going to work so I went and had a look at what was going on.

    When we took the door off we found water just at the top of the tray ready to overflow any second.

    We unplugged that drain and started looking at what was done. We found that the handler has two ports on that side, one slightly higher than the other, not hard to figure out what that was about.
    We removed all the insulation inside the unit that was wet and replaced it with 1/2 foam, hooked the second drain
    We found a chunk of expanded metal (aluminum) to lay in the drain pan so crap floating around in there would not find it's way to the drain, and if it did the second drain hole would then take over.
    We moved the secondary pan 3 ft forward so it would actually catch the water where it did leak twice.
    The bills for all of this was in the thousands and I am not sure what he did when he was servicing but his repairs where just fixing the symptoms and not the cause.
    It ran all last summer checked often with no problem.
    I have not received a good explanation for the trap in the line, I took it out.
     
  10. Apr 12, 2016 #30

    Chris

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    Do you think the trap was to keep bugs out?
     
  11. Apr 12, 2016 #31

    nealtw

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    They will be dry in the winter so even if the drain goes to the sewer?? I did here something about back pressure, when I questioned that I got the shrug of the shoulders. Would not matter if the had a removable trap.
     
  12. Apr 12, 2016 #32

    Snoonyb

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    Actually they cannot drain directly into a sewer.

    It must enter the waste system prior to a water-primed trap.
     
  13. Apr 12, 2016 #33

    Snoonyb

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    How often and where is the return air filter.

    There is a legal reference in all states, it's called, The Business and Professional Code.

    There are professionals who are referred by attny to analyze systems, determine the cause of a failure, write a report and act as a professional witness.
     
  14. Apr 12, 2016 #34

    o2284200

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    :confused: Please, expand on your thoughts here.
     
  15. Apr 13, 2016 #35

    Snoonyb

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    When you ask for another estimate and evaluation of the system, leave any reference and history you have had with XYZ, in that secret place, not even, your wife knows about
     
  16. Apr 13, 2016 #36

    o2284200

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    If you're asking "How often..." I replace the return air filter?
    About once a month, in season (May-Dec); about once every 2-3 months, out of season.

    Where is the return air filter?
    The return air filter is where it says "FILTER", on bottom right piece of metal just above the wood.
    [​IMG]

    FWIW, I've started drafting an email to XYZ, co. Since they're a licensed contractor with the state, I'm thinking I can nicely bring up the fact that I'm aware they cheated by not pulling the required permit(s); and the fact that they continue to behave in what I consider unethical, if not unlawful business practices...as well as "suggest" going to the state licensing division as well as the BBB, might be in order.

    With all that said, I'm more concerned with whether or not XYZ, co. has the power to put a mechanics lien on my house than a credit hit of collections.
     
  17. Apr 13, 2016 #37

    oldognewtrick

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    Yes, they can lien your house IF it states in their agreement that you signed that they reserve the right to lien the property in the event of non payment. I would contact the state licensing board and codes dept. if it gets to that point.
     
  18. Apr 13, 2016 #38

    o2284200

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    This is one of the reasons, I want to know, if XYZ, co. has any responsibility here for not pulling the required permit(s)...I refuse to be taken advantage of, as a consumer.
     
  19. Apr 13, 2016 #39

    o2284200

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    XYZ, co.'s agreement says "I have authority to order the work outlined above, which has been satisfactorily completed. I agree Seller retains title to equipment/materials furnished until final payment is made. If payment is not made as agreed, seller can remove said equipment/materials at seller's expense. Any damage resulting from said removal shall not be the responsibility of Seller.". It also states "OUR POLICY: We try sincerely to handle all service work honestly, efficiently and at a fair price. Should you ever a question, regarding our work, please feel free to bring it to us.". As far as signatures...

    6/3/15: Yes, I signed BUT before the tech left, we both spoke with XYZ, co. office and got approval on no charge. At that point, I crossed out the $90 amount due on the invoice and both the tech and I initialed it.

    10/2015: No, I did not sign. The tech left without presenting me a bill to sign. FWIW, to me, this visit was for a repair estimate not a service call.
     
  20. Apr 13, 2016 #40

    Snoonyb

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    And the tech. quoted that "office communication" on the receipt, which you have a copy a legible copy of, in your possession?

    And they will state, under oath, presenting a repair estimate form, that repair estimates are at no charge or if there is a charge, the cost of the repairs will be adjusted to reflect that estimate as a credit?

    Have you reviewed the lien laws for your state, which are available on line?

    At this point, only you, can help you, and an if and maybe email isn't going to help.
     

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