Relocating one pipe system steam radiator

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zeetwo

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Hello all. Need help with this radiator line. I wanted to move the radiator to the right side of the bathroom so I can do a full shower, toilet and vanity on the same side instead of a small corner shower. Given the pictures, can I move this radiator to the right side? What do I have to ensure if I could move it?
 

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Hello Zeetwo,

Moving it should not cause any problems. If the radiator is under a window now & won't be later, your room may heat noticeably differently. You'll still have the same BTU/hr emitted, but the convection pattern will change, heading toward the window.

A few things of which to be aware:
A) Keep the vent on the same side that it is now- opposite the pipe. If you put the pipe on the same side, the radiator will heat in a diagonal from corner to corner. Only the part under the imaginary diagonal line will heat.

B) Since it is a one-pipe system, check the pitch of the radiator and of the piping before disconnecting. When you reinstall, be sure to maintain about the same pitch. Over or under pitched pipes or unit will cause loud banging or maybe even lockups.

C) Be very careful moving the unit. The sections are connected by push nipples.
If the unit is mishandled, the push nipples may start leaking. Tapered push nipples require more careful handling than threaded. (If you see draw rods between sections, you have tapered push nipples.) Replacements are available for all radiators.

D) Be certain that the floor and supports where the unit will end up are suitable for the weight. You can calculate the weight by measuring the unit, counting the sections and columns per section. Many on-line charts will show the weight.
Suggestion- Try to get the radiator feet above joists or a header. I recently had one where the feet were between joists. Physics dictated that the center joist took all of the weight and finally broke it. (100+ year old building, but broken is broken) When you see cracks in bathroom floor tile near a radiator, it's often caused by subfloor sagging over time because the radiator feet are between joists. (You can also wall hang it. Kits are still made.)

E) The joint compound in the photos looks like it might be old style linseed oil based, If the fittings don't come apart easily, try running the heat to get them warm first.
If that fails, using fire safety precautions for the surrounding wood, a carefully used torch on the fitting will do the job. The fitting will expand. While it's warm, loosen the pipe nipple. On the happy side, none of the fittings in the photos look to be cast, so they won't shatter when you wrench on them.

F) If you have to add pipe, although copper is easier & less expensive than threading new iron pipe, there is a lot of controversy about using copper on steam systems. Personally, I've never done it. It was not legal when I apprenticed & got my heating license, but may be now. Perhaps an article or post at Heating Help Com will give you both sides of the argument.

G) There is a good chance that moving the unit will cause debris to loosen & eventually clog the vent. This is no big problem. Most can be opened for cleaning.

G) When you unhook it, some rust water will come out of the unit and pipes. Be sure anything that will be damaged is covered.

Enjoy Your Project & New Bath!
Paul
 
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Hello Zeetwo,

Moving it should not cause any problems. If the radiator is under a window now & won't be later, your room may heat noticeably differently. You'll still have the same BTU/hr emitted, but the convection pattern will change, heading toward the window.

A few things of which to be aware:
A) Keep the vent on the same side that it is now- opposite the pipe. If you put the pipe on the same side, the radiator will heat in a diagonal from corner to corner. Only the part under the imaginary diagonal line will heat.

B) Since it is a one-pipe system, check the pitch of the radiator and of the piping before disconnecting. When you reinstall, be sure to maintain about the same pitch. Over or under pitched pipes or unit will cause loud banging or maybe even lockups.

C) Be very careful moving the unit. The sections are connected by push nipples.
If the unit is mishandled, the push nipples may start leaking. Tapered push nipples require more careful handling than threaded. (If you see draw rods between sections, you have tapered push nipples.) Replacements are available for all radiators.

D) Be certain that the floor and supports where the unit will end up are suitable for the weight. You can calculate the weight by measuring the unit, counting the sections and columns per section. Many on-line charts will show the weight.
Suggestion- Try to get the radiator feet above joists or a header. I recently had one where the feet were between joists. Physics dictated that the center joist took all of the weight and finally broke it. (100+ year old building, but broken is broken) When you see cracks in bathroom floor tile near a radiator, it's often because the subfloor sagged because the radiator feet are between joists.

E) The joint compound in the photos looks like it might be old style linseed oil based, If the fittings don't come apart easily, try running the heat to get them warm first.
If that fails, suing fire safety precautions for the surrounding wood, a carefully used torch on the fitting will do the job. The fitting will expand. While it's warm, loosen the pipe nipple. On the happy side, none of the fittings in the photos look to be cast, so they won't shatter when you wrench on them.

F) If you have to add pipe, although copper is easier & less expensive than threading new iron pipe, there is a lot of controversy about using copper on steam systems. Personally, I've never done it. It was not legal when I apprenticed & got my heating license, but may be now. Perhaps an article or post at Heating Help Com will give you both sides of the argument.

G) There is a good chance that moving the unit will cause debris to loosen & eventually clog the vent. This is no big problem. Most can be opened for cleaning.

G) When you unhook it, some rust water will come out of the unit and pipes. Be sure anything that will be damaged is covered.

Enjoy Your Project & New Bath!
Paul
Thank you so much!! Can I ask one follow up question? is it better to just cap the line and use an electric heater/exhaust vent combo? If I cap it, will it imbalance the system?
 
The decision about using an electric heater instead of the existing steam will be up to you.

Some things to explore before switching to electric heat:
How many BTU/hr will the heater produce versus how many btu/hr you got from the radiator? (Radiator BTU calculators are on line.) Will the heater give enough heat, especially after winter shower?

What's the cost per kW-h for electricity where you live versus fuel for the steam boiler?
Where I live, to heat a room electrically would cost 8.7 times as much as with gas.

Will you miss it?
When remodeling one of our bathrooms, I took out a 7 column Schoolhouse style radiator & replaced it with a flat panel unit and hydronically heating the bathtub apron. I miss it! There's nothing like hovering over a radiator after a shower or after working outside all day in winter. They make wonderful boot, hat, glove dryers, too.

---------------------------------
Three Options:
In-Floor heating cables or mat with local thermostat may provide the heat that you want for the room. You can get them in 120 and 230 volts. Many are can be cut on-site. They typically are embedded in the mortar when you tile the floor. I think if you're using a de-coupling mat such as Ditra, they go under the Ditra. (Not sure)


Electric baseboard units with local thermostat are fairly inexpensive to purchase.

In-Wall electric heaters. The grill is flush with the wall surface. The "guts" are in the wall. The early 1900's house in which I grew up had these in bathrooms to supplement the radiators (also in the walls).



-------------------------------
Capping? No Problem!
About capping the unit unbalancing the system, I very, very much doubt it will matter, but can't say with 100% positivity without seeing the piping.

Removing a unit should not matter since yours is a one-pipe, one-boiler system.
Typically on a one-pipe system, such as is often found in 1920's skyscrapers, tenants turn radiators off and on all day. Your radiators may (probably) even have radiator valves.



If you're hesitant about moving the unit, don't let my Caution-Warning-Danger stuff in Post #2 overly concern you.
I wanted to post things for you to be careful of while working.

For the floor weight concerns, in my house there are short sections of vertical 2 x 4 going from joist to joist under the largest radiators' legs. This spreads the weight to two joists.

Just in case you're hesitant, hiring a steam person to move the piping shouldn't cost a whole lot of money. From your photos, it looks to be a rather quick in & out job.

But...
You have the talents to remodel a bathroom, I'll bet you can move this radiator with ease. (Can't hurt to try)

Paul
PS: If you have more questions, don't hesitate to ask!
 
If you don't mind a little more of my yabba-jab "advice of too many words"...

I forgot to mention the option of wall hanging the unit if you're concerned about weight on the floor.
Basically, you'll install 2 or 3 Wall Bracket Cradles and then install Wall Stays which are the same as those we use to mount radiators on ceilings. This not only makes tiling the floor easier, it lets you mount the radiator high up on the wall if desired.

Some of the samples in the photos are utilitarian. You can get Wall Stays with decorative rosettes or in brass and there are many different decorative style cradles are available. (I've made cradles by welding half-cut pieces of pipe to angle stock, but those were for industrial, so beauty wasn't important.)



Don't worry too much about messing up a push nipple. You have to really knock the unit around to cause a leak. Not twisting the unit vertically while handling it is the most important thing to consider. If yours does not have tie rods, the nipples are threaded, thus it's harder to cause a leak.

Paul
 

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If you don't mind a little more of my yabba-jab "advice of too many words"...

I forgot to mention the option of wall hanging the unit if you're concerned about weight on the floor.
Basically, you'll install 2 or 3 Wall Bracket Cradles and then install Wall Stays which are the same as those we use to mount radiators on ceilings. This not only makes tiling the floor easier, it lets you mount the radiator high up on the wall if desired.

Some of the samples in the photos are utilitarian. You can get Wall Stays with decorative rosettes or in brass and there are many different decorative style cradles are available. (I've made cradles by welding half-cut pieces of pipe to angle stock, but those were for industrial, so beauty wasn't important.)



Don't worry too much about messing up a push nipple. You have to really knock the unit around to cause a leak. Not twisting the unit vertically while handling it is the most important thing to consider. If yours does not have tie rods, the nipples are threaded, thus it's harder to cause a leak.

Paul

Thank you so much for some great insights. You definitely helped shaped my decision. The decision not to move the radiator was more for realizing how crowded the bathroom would look if we put all 3 fixtures one after another on one side. Bathroom is 80x100
 
There are generally two types of electric heaters, space, of which there are several systems and radiant, which generally short term and just heat objects, such as you.
 
Thank you so much for some great insights. You definitely helped shaped my decision. The decision not to move the radiator was more for realizing how crowded the bathroom would look if we put all 3 fixtures one after another on one side. Bathroom is 80x100
Hi Zeetwo,
I don't know if this will help your design at all, but we explored two space saving toilet options for one of our very small bathrooms. (Room is 7.5 feet x 5 feet). We have another bathroom that is 4 feet x 8 feet. And a Euclidian parallelogram with a corner chopped off shaped bathroom All have tubs.

One space saving option is a Corner Toilet. The tank is triangular shaped to tuck into a corner of the room. This helps a little with how far the bowl projects into the room. For maximum space saving, order a round front bowl.

The other is a 10" rough-in toilet. This was the saving grace for us, as this put the front of the (round front) bowl 2" farther back. That allowed sufficient knee room to the radiator. Again, a round front bowl helps with depth.

To change from a 12" rough-in to 10 inch, you've two options:
A) Replace the closet flange with a 2" Offset Flange. Sold are no-hub style, ABS Glue-In or Glue Over, PVC Glue-In or Glue Over, and even lead-in. But sometimes the press-in is ideal. (Pictured below) The existing riser stays where it it.

B) Move the riser pipe 2 inches. Hopefully it'll be a straight move & no pipe relocating or joist headers required. (Mine was header, hydronic pipes, water line and an air conditioner duct- plus a horizontal offset. But I got my precious 2 inches!)

More "How To Fit All of This?" Ideas:
And, although there's no storage, a pedestal sink saves space. We used that in our 4 x 8 bathroom.

And, four foot tubs are available. We used a standard depth steel one in a very small parallelogram bathroom on our second floor. The 4 x 8 bathroom has a deep 48" long soaking tub. (Kohler Greek).

Paul
PS: Note that two of our bathrooms don't meet clearance from center line of toilet to wall or fixture by an inch. (My house, my rules) If complying is important, you may want to research that while planning.
 

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