Here is a thought for securing the ridge. Four of these for each set of rafters at the top with holes thru the ridge board with all thread and nuts. These would hold and pull the top tight as you pulled the bottoms back.
Sagging Roof on Shop
- Thread starter Cooter85
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Help Support House Repair Talk:
nealtw
Contractor retired
I doubt that it near a tipping point, if you have ever seen a barn fall down.
But I do agree that fear here is a plus and every fear should be addressed.
Keep in mind that this took years to sag and the every board on the roof has 3 nails into every rafter that have all been stressed so moving this back into place will take some time as it will be 1/8 to 1/4" per day.
So you would brace one wall to the floor while you work with the other wall.
Chain from one side of the floor to the top of the wall or bottom of rafter with a turnbuckle and a couple Simpson hurricane tie downs to pull the wall back slowly.
nealtw
Contractor retired
Four for each set , or a set for four rafter sets.
If you drill thru the ridge you would be close to the bottom of the ridge so I think you could go just below the ridge but I like the fact that you have adjustment.
Jacking would be tricky to say the least. if you jack the center you would want to remove nails from the rafters to the walls and do both sides at the same time. O you could jack one side on an angle to correct the other side but the structure of the floor really comes into question.
Yes and I was suggesting the brackets above for the ridge also perhaps. Drill holes thru the ridge and bend some all thread to pull one rafter to the other to close the gap at the top at the same time you cable or come along the bottom.
Yes I would go slow and move from one nut to the next half a turn at a time. Maybe give it a rest day here and there during the show. The permeant fix would then be to add more collar ties with thru bolts and leave the rafter pullers in place at the top.
I still dont like it all sitting on that knee wall on the floor with the joists running the wrong direction. Would have to pull some of the flooring and get a look at whats below.
Compared to restructuring the whole building and using a center beam or tearing the whole roof off and building it over I wouldn’t go cheap on the hardware. I would put one of those ties on each side of every rafter and drill thru the rafter and use bolts to sandwich them together no screws. Might cost 50 bucks for each 2 rafters. The threaded rod could go right below the ridge you are correct. if the nails haven't pulled all the way out they should go back in.
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inspectorD
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Do us all a favor and call an Engineer. You need more than cables on this with a knee wall and joists bowing out an inch and a half.
Its going to be 400 at the most for them to give you a documented fix, so if anything does go wrong, and insurance or the Building officials need it, you got it.
My money is on a ridge beam,with or without posts depending on what is below. We have done a 60 foot barn with one steel beam held up at the exterior gable end walls. Another was a pair of 18 inch LVL with a steel plate bolted in between ... I've done many.
That or your going to need some angle braces at the knee walls.
We did it all with pipe stagging and ladders.. not cranes, and it fit in right underneath the rafters. We lifted it at both gable ends with additional crib shoring under it. We cut a hole into the wall and slid it in with a bucket of the Backhoe.
Engineer is my recommendation.. its not an easy fix unfortunately with wood species, nails under load, snow and wind loads ect ect...
We can help with more advice from there.
Its going to be 400 at the most for them to give you a documented fix, so if anything does go wrong, and insurance or the Building officials need it, you got it.
My money is on a ridge beam,with or without posts depending on what is below. We have done a 60 foot barn with one steel beam held up at the exterior gable end walls. Another was a pair of 18 inch LVL with a steel plate bolted in between ... I've done many.
That or your going to need some angle braces at the knee walls.
We did it all with pipe stagging and ladders.. not cranes, and it fit in right underneath the rafters. We lifted it at both gable ends with additional crib shoring under it. We cut a hole into the wall and slid it in with a bucket of the Backhoe.
Engineer is my recommendation.. its not an easy fix unfortunately with wood species, nails under load, snow and wind loads ect ect...
We can help with more advice from there.
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nealtw
Contractor retired
I would agree with having an engineer, but all to often they suggest the most expensive fix.
A beam is not just a beam it is also point loads and footing and if there is a door below there will be more beam. All that gets very expensive.
The best bet is to develop three complete plans with the guesses that the common people make. And then call in the engineer and have him check the weights and do the calculations and approve or improve one or more plan.
I agree that a beam would take the weight and stop the pushing on the walls but converting the rafters to simulate scissor trusses would stop the push and leave the weight on the walls.
nealtw
Contractor retired
A complete tear down would not be needed cutting the sheeting to manageable pieces to fix like 10 or 12 ft would be my last suggestion.
He would need a 40 long beam or posts running down thru the building at one place and then use two 20 beams. Beam would be entering the building at about 20 above ground. None of that is a problem but it is clearly out of the realm of what I could do as a one-man DIY project.
I agree seeking the help of an Engineer is always a good choice to make and if they recommend the above repair I would think they would also recommend a certified team do the work.
I have little idea of the cost of a project like this I know 400 bucks for the report I wouldnt have an issue with if it was me. Can we give the OP a ballpark cost on this project? I know my sister just had a couple maple trees taken down with a bucket truck a 2 day project and it was 8 grand. Would something like this labor and material be doable for 20 30 k ?
As to cables and pulling my friend has some strap type pullers that he uses for tree work, ratchet type. I have seen him pull a one ton truck sideways on the street using it as an anchor point and another time snapping a 10 limb like a stick when he got carried away trying to keep it away from a house when cutting it. So you can buy or rent some pretty strong stuff to pull a wall with.
Again OP any ideas you get from me are coming from a non pro DIY handyman.
I agree it might not have to be 100%. He would get into quite a bit more that way at the least new shingles and all that.
I have to think it slid as a unit it has to come back as a unit. Pulling on one place the connection I dont think could be made strong enough to move it all.
With a beam you will still have to do most of the above to push the beam up once it is in there and then something to close the gaps to get the wall to come in.
nealtw
Contractor retired
If a beam went in the walls and roof still have to be put in place first.
The header over the window would have to be made bigger with barring points to the floor and then the beam over the garage door has to be increased, with point loads to the ground that may require bigger footing.
40 ft would be out of the question so you would need a post in the center of the man cave and below a post and a new footing or a beam to spread that load to each side and point loads and footings and the footing or two and possible beam and footing at the other end.
All the walls and roof has to held in place until the beam is lifted and installed, after the collar ties are removed.
Or the roof is held up from below while the peak is cut out to allow the beam to be dropped in from above.
Inspector: did I miss anything.
The header over the window would have to be made bigger with barring points to the floor and then the beam over the garage door has to be increased, with point loads to the ground that may require bigger footing.
40 ft would be out of the question so you would need a post in the center of the man cave and below a post and a new footing or a beam to spread that load to each side and point loads and footings and the footing or two and possible beam and footing at the other end.
All the walls and roof has to held in place until the beam is lifted and installed, after the collar ties are removed.
Or the roof is held up from below while the peak is cut out to allow the beam to be dropped in from above.
Inspector: did I miss anything.
nealtw
Contractor retired
When I was talking about chain and turn buckle I did not mean to say one would do the job. I like the turn buckles because they are slow and strong and cheap. I would think one ever 6 or 8 ft and the chain has to be the good tested stuff. Anybody selling chain should be able to tell the difference for tested and untested, if not buy somewhere else.
slownsteady
Well-Known Member
Reading along on this, two things cross my mind: Is there is a real concern to working from the inside? Could a post (column) be placed and snugged up to the ridge to relieve some stress while working on this? I understand it is a second floor so it would be column over column. Has the OP checked the plumb of the lower exterior walls?
nealtw
Contractor retired
The floor should be holding everything in place but yes the whole structure would have to be looked at before anything was done. That would be weights and stress factors that would best be left to the engineer.
What ever method of pulling is done, the size of the equipment for the weight being pulled, the amount of stress a plywood floor can take and what needs to be done to increase the structure below to take that stress.
At the very least I could see some blocking in the floor and maybe a temp something from side to side below like a 2x10 to give the floor more of a box structure while the pull is being done.
nealtw
Contractor retired
2 methods that come to mind to hold everything in place after it is straighten out.
1. cut slots in floor so full length studs can be brought up from below and build a new balloon frame wall inside both the upper and lower walls, tie the studs to original studs with plywood.
2. Scissor the rafter with angle ties from the area of the rafter tie on one side to the area of the collar tie on the other side.
Rafter ties are in the lower third
Collar ties are in the upper third
As the gable would not need this, some box up framing would allow for the window.
1. cut slots in floor so full length studs can be brought up from below and build a new balloon frame wall inside both the upper and lower walls, tie the studs to original studs with plywood.
2. Scissor the rafter with angle ties from the area of the rafter tie on one side to the area of the collar tie on the other side.
Rafter ties are in the lower third
Collar ties are in the upper third
As the gable would not need this, some box up framing would allow for the window.
nealtw
Contractor retired
Most farmers have a dozen of those hanging in the barn along with 20 log chains is what we call them. I agree with what you said above I would put one every other rafter. I would look into renting them. I do know some guys would go buy them use them and then return them. I would never do that but some people would.
inspectorD
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Well.. this is why he needs someone there to give him the answer... We are speculating on everything and throwing out a wild cost does nothing for the guy,,but scare him to not do it the right way..I mean..who wants an Inspector hangin around..:nono::rofl:
Basically, you need the two end supports or even a center post always supported to the ground. The footings are probably just fine, and again we need the expert.. Bottom line is with the low ceiling height and the kneewalls not being balloon framed. He has two options.
A wall in the center to hold the ridge and building from spreading any further,
or a large ridge beam installed directly under the existing ridge supporting the rafters. Most likely with some hardware and bracketing as you lift getting installed.
The sequence is very important, thus the engineer...or at the least, a really good structural carpenter to guide you through it.
Safety..is number one.:help:
I dont usually hang around here and throw out the engineer .. this is different.
The bottom floor of the shop seems built very sturdy, all walls are plumb and square, no noticeable cracks in the foundation. The problems seem to be only on the top walls and roof. I'm wondering if the upstairs room was a later addition to the shop, as there doesn't seem to be the same level of craftsmanship or attention to detail as the lower floor.
I appreciate the concern with safety and caution. I dont feel that it is anything beyond my capability, or that warrants opening a can of worms with an engineer. Whatever plan I act on will be done slowly and incremental, with an extra pair of eyes or two on it.
So 1/2" bolts in the collar ties with oversized holes. Attach steel rope with turnbuckles on every other rafter, and lift the ridge with 3 jacks while pulling the roof together over a few days or a week. Then reinforce with extra collar ties, hurricane clips, rafter hangers, angle brackets on the walls, etc, etc. Sounds like a winning plan.
Does 1/4" steel rope sound adequate? Where should I drill the holes to attach it? Above the birdsmouth, or behind it?
I appreciate the concern with safety and caution. I dont feel that it is anything beyond my capability, or that warrants opening a can of worms with an engineer. Whatever plan I act on will be done slowly and incremental, with an extra pair of eyes or two on it.
So 1/2" bolts in the collar ties with oversized holes. Attach steel rope with turnbuckles on every other rafter, and lift the ridge with 3 jacks while pulling the roof together over a few days or a week. Then reinforce with extra collar ties, hurricane clips, rafter hangers, angle brackets on the walls, etc, etc. Sounds like a winning plan.
Does 1/4" steel rope sound adequate? Where should I drill the holes to attach it? Above the birdsmouth, or behind it?
inspectorD
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