shifted bearing partition wall over ceiling joists - need to reinforce!

[bluestu91]

Hi everyone - new to this forum. We recently bought a house and I shifted what I thought was a non-load bearing wall over by 1'. The wall (as i learned!) supports the ceiling joists which were lap-joined over the wall. On one side the span was 9', and 11' at the other. Now the spans are both 10' but the shorter joists are no longer supported by the bearing wall. I'd like to reinforce the shorted joists by adding 1' sections to them and attaching via fabricated nail-plates, and bolting the entire thing together (see attached). I should add there are rafter ties right above the joists, so i believe the joists are mostly 'just' holding up the ceiling. Curious for other's thoughts.

 

[Snoonyb]

Welcome.

Obtain a permit.

Is there a basement?

Hire a structural engineer.

 

[Jeff Handy]

Yes, hire an engineer, or at least a home construction remodeling pro with experience like that.

And if you had gotten a permit first, they would not have let you do it, after inspecting it or reviewing your plans.

And Snoonyb is asking about a basement, (or crawl space) because what is the load being transferred to, is there a beam down there?
Or are you on a slab?

 

[bluestu91]

thanks for the responses guys. I will contact a structural engineer. I did not get a permit thinking it was a non-load bearing wall - dumb me. There is another floor below - so i will have the engineer look into this as well - will probably have to open up the ceiling from underneath to inspect it.

 

[Jeff Handy]

They can look into the ceiling with an inspection camera, poked through some tiny holes, easy to patch.

 

[Snoonyb]

thanks for the responses guys. I will contact a structural engineer. I did not get a permit thinking it was a non-load bearing wall - dumb me. There is another floor below - so i will have the engineer look into this as well - will probably have to open up the ceiling from underneath to inspect it.

There may be, depending upon the age of the dwelling and the politics of the municipality, a copy of the original permitted plans, stored on microfiche. Providing them for the engineer will save you the need for an extended set of plans, a wet set of plans which will be required submitted with the permit application.

 

[nealtw]

So you took down a wall before looking upstairs, I hope you have learned something.

 

[bud16415]

Just be advised calling people in after the fact may open a can of worms.


From what you described this is the second floor and the joists have no floor loading from above. These joists do two things they suspend the ceiling and they act in tension with the weight of the roof and roof load from pushing out the walls. The collar ties help with this as well. I would call the wall semi load bearing.


I would do something like what you suggested only add something 2-3’ back and then an overlapping sister 2X instead of the plates and make that about 4’ long screwing or nailing it on a pretty close pattern on both sides. I really think you will be fine. I might even add some structural glue as I go.


Get it fixed and bury it in insulation and forget about it.


That being said the above suggestions and future advice is all correct.

 

[oldognewtrick]

And I'm sure bud meant to include that nails have superior shear strength over screws...

 

[Jeff Handy]

Everything bud said sounds pretty good to me.
Maybe a three foot extension, then a six foot sister.
You don’t want any hinging or flex at that splice, or at the old overlap.

I think those mending plates would be pretty worthless.

I agree nails are better than screws.
Maybe a few screws to stabilize the new boards before nailing.
Pre-drill to avoid splitting.
Carpenter’s exterior wood glue between all the new boards.

And pre-drill before nailing, to avoid splitting, and so you don’t have to bang the nails in so hard that you crack the drywall joints, or get nail pops under those joists, in the ceiling below.

 

[bud16415]

@oldognewtrick The nail vs screw debate will go on forever and I agree screws in general are harder and more brittle and have higher tension numbers but break before yield. Pullout force is much higher as well as maintaining the connection when wood dries or expands. Of course power set nails have an adhesive coating that sets with the heat of rapid driving etc etc. The biggest problem is both nails and screws have many forms they come in and matching the fastener to the application is a big deal.


For me I may have tore as many things apart as I have built in my life and having taken down some old decks I will take down a nailed one over a screwed one any day because nails let go with prying and screws have to come out the way they went in.


For the last 10 years or so I have been using a screw called GaurdDog that are pretty tough and come with a driver that is both Square and Philips all in one. You get one driver per box and they outlast a box of screws 3 to 1. The Torx heads work even better but for me the drivers don’t hold up as well. These are structural screws IMO and not something like drywall screws just bigger.


https://www.amazon.com/FastenMaster-FMGD003-350-GuardDog-Exterior-350-Pack/dp/B000VBBEI0/ref=sr_1_2?gclid=CjwKCAiAluLvBRASEiwAAbX3GQ_sSEsTEpwE2gUEcv3NYGg_wGvDr5Q7BsOh_7aJGoHEL6Jt9aOO_xoCgwoQAvD_BwE&hvadid=241912176947&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9006390&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t2&hvqmt=e&hvrand=1012483770420619359&hvtargid=kwd-386345848449&hydadcr=24633_10399729&keywords=guard+dog+deck+screws&qid=1576615603&sr=8-2


@Jeff Handy I agree if the OP doesn’t have a power nailer then nailing is going to cause all kinds of problems with the interior ceiling. On a job like this I would bring along two good size C-clamps as a helper. Glue up the piece and clamp it tight getting any bows out etc. and then start running screws. I find it hard to pull the surfaces together when screwing unless there are pilot holes in one piece and that’s messing around to do. Clamp and screw makes a good connection with some glue in between, for repairs and such. New construction is a different thing.


I don’t know where building code is now in terms of screws. Not to many years ago screws were still a pretty poor choice. Today they are way more expensive but there are some out there that can hold their own.

 

[bluestu91]

So you took down a wall before looking upstairs, I hope you have learned something.

I have! No excuses - I should have looked in the attic

 

[bluestu91]

Just be advised calling people in after the fact may open a can of worms.


From what you described this is the second floor and the joists have no floor loading from above. These joists do two things they suspend the ceiling and they act in tension with the weight of the roof and roof load from pushing out the walls. The collar ties help with this as well. I would call the wall semi load bearing.


I would do something like what you suggested only add something 2-3’ back and then an overlapping sister 2X instead of the plates and make that about 4’ long screwing or nailing it on a pretty close pattern on both sides. I really think you will be fine. I might even add some structural glue as I go.


Get it fixed and bury it in insulation and forget about it.


That being said the above suggestions and future advice is all correct.

thanks Bud! You have read the situation correctly - this is in the attic. I was thinking about a sister joist instead of Metal plate the other night. Would you sandwich both joists or is one sister joist enough? I will extend the overlaps like you recommended.

I have a framing gun so will use that. Does anyone have thoughts on nail pattern (staggered vs grid, spacing etc) and size nails?

thanks again everyone - I have indeed learned a lot by this. For what it’s worth this Part of the house has perpendicular roofs on each side which probably support the walls laterally, but nevertheless the fix is certainly needed.

 

[bud16415]

thanks Bud! You have read the situation correctly - this is in the attic. I was thinking about a sister joist instead of Metal plate the other night. Would you sandwich both joists or is one sister joist enough? I will extend the overlaps like you recommended.

I have a framing gun so will use that. Does anyone have thoughts on nail pattern (staggered vs grid, spacing etc) and size nails?

thanks again everyone - I have indeed learned a lot by this. For what it’s worth this Part of the house has perpendicular roofs on each side which probably support the walls laterally, but nevertheless the fix is certainly needed.

I think one sister plus the spacer block would be enough. Sounds like things are fairly stable as it is with the other roofs adding to the spreading strength.


As far as nailing the longer the sister the stronger the joint will be. I wouldn’t overdo the nailing but I wouldn’t be shy about it also. Nails are cheap compared to the time and effort to do all this.
I might add a few nails to the old overlap also as long as i was at it.


When you moved the wall it sounds like nothing dropped or sagged. Did you remove the ceiling and put a new header up to the joists or is the ceiling material still sandwiched in between?

 

[nealtw]

You also have to worry about the joists in the floor they may need support directly under the new wall location.