T&P valve drain violates code & other water heater issues

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zannej

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I've been discussing this in a thread about my HVAC system because my water heater is next to my air handler. I've decided to move the discussion over here.
Whoever installed the original water heater decided to reduce to 1/4" copper instead of keeping it at 3/4" so it looks like this:
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I will need to get more photos. IIRC this water heater was installed in 2001. It has never been drained and has never had the anode rod checked. Given how much hard water we have and how the water comes out brownish, I fully expect that the rod is gone by now.
Anyway, I'm trying to come up with a solution for correcting the T&P valve situation.
I purchased this 63" tube specifically for t&p valves. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbil...ene-Side-Mount-Runoff-Tube-EB11955C/204834492

The problem is, my water heater is on a platform in a closet above the air circulation compartment for the HVAC.
Here's a crappy sketch I drew:
1732554998754.png
ignore the 21x21. It's 20x20 and 1" thick but my brain translated that to 21". herp derp.
This is a cruddy photo that shows a little bit of the platform on the left (where the plywood is).
1732555188735.png
That is a very old photo. I'd take a more recent one but the carpet is embarrassingly filthy.
The water heater is not on any sort of pan to catch water. The house is a one story ranch up on blocks. Underneath the air circulation compartment is the underside of the house which is just dirt.
The 63" tube is not long enough to reach the underside of the house, so I'm wondering if I can bridge the tube to PEX and then run the PEX out under the house or have it come out near where the condensate line comes out. Another idea would be to have a small floor drain in the compartment below the tube and have sch40 pvc drain pipe going under the house. If it ever leaks it shouldn't be enough to cause any problems. The condensate line already drips under there. I'd eventually like to get something like this: https://www.amazon.com/Tough-87093-Heater-Adapter-Diameter/dp/B016E4TWZY
It will hold the water heater out of the water if there is ever a leak and it will raise it up a little more so its easier to get a hose on to drain it.
As a complete aside, I was looking at new water heaters (in case mine craps out soon) and saw the video ad for Rheem Gladiator and the music is so over-dramatic it's funny.
 
HMMM, water heaters use to come with 3 legs, which were also notorious for failures. Then, when 1 failed the other 2 were removed and the appliance was supported with bricks. Then the legs were eliminated by the mfg's. so it became pretty much standard practice to support both LNG & ELEC. on bricks, whether or not a drain pan was used.
 
definitely not to code you shall not diminish the pipe of a safety valve exhaust

not be smaller than the diameter of the outlet of the valve it serves (usually no smaller than 3/4"). not reduce in size from the valve to the air gap (point of discharge).
 
Good lord, now a wi-fi controlled water heater? I laughed at my wi-fi thermostat, but found it useful. I laughed at my wi-fi controlled garage door opener, but also found it useful. When I bought my fridge, I found it also was a wi-fi controlled brain, but all it does is tell you to order more water filters and air filters. Now a wi-fi controlled water heater?
Man, I sure miss my horse and buggy days!
 
@Snoonyb, I'd heard about the brick thing. I would do that if I already had a pan but I don't have a pan. I figure if I get a pan I'll get one that already has the ridges built in-- but that would be along with the purchase of a new water heater.

Thanks @billshack. I had read that bit of code so I knew it was a code violation-- was told about it years ago when I posted pictures either here or on the plumbing forums. I will add that I have no idea where that copper tubing terminates. It goes through the air circulation compartment and down through the floor and I didn't see it under the house (although I didn't really look).

@havasu, but what did you think of the music? I was listening and thinking it sounded like an epic battle scene and then it got more dramatic with the singing. I actually do like that music. Makes me wish I was tech savvy enough to figure out how to get a device that could play that music and set it up next to one of those water heaters in a big box store and have it motion sensor triggered so it would start playing when someone came near it. If the water heater could play music it would make more sense. LOL.

I didn't like the idea of wifi thermostat at first but now I love it because I can check the temperature, check what the weather is from its info, and change settings without getting out of bed. My friend has a wifi fridge that will tell him whenever someone opens the fridge door. It will also tell him if the door was left open and have an alarm go off.

I don't ever do much with the water heater except run hot water so I don't know if I'd ever use the wifi for it. My friend was joking that his next water heater will be the one advertised just because of the music in the ad. LOL. I wonder if it actually is a decent water heater. I've got a whirlpool right now. I was eying that one before I heard the music.

I'm also considering some sort of whole house water filter. Saw this https://www.amazon.com/Waterdrop-WHF21-PG-Filtration-Sediment-Chlorine/dp/B09SM2ZN3X on black friday sale and this https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0D94B5S5V is recommended to go along with it (would be before it). I have space in the pump house to set it up. Friend said it looks like it might be easy enough although reviews said to use pipe dope, wide teflon tape wrapped about 20x and more pipe dope and not to over-tighten to install the 2 part one. Saw a filter that is supposed to last 6 months that is also on sale. But I suppose this is probably a topic for a different thread. I'd want to get something like that before getting a new water heater.

As an aside, the type of drain I bought looks like it has to be turned to go on and I'm wondering if there is some sort of hose adapter type thing I could use on it to make it twist on more easily.

Hoping I won't need a new water heater for a while given that we just had to replace tires, replaced air handler, need to replace microwave and air fryer, and don't know how much other work on truck is going to cost.
 
Since the rod's never been out, it'll be quite tight.
Leaving the tank full & heavy until you break the nut free helps a bit with keeping the tank from rotating while you wrench. Having a helper hug the tank will also help. Having the water still hot might help the nut loosen a little bit.

Ideally, an electric impact gun with a 1-1/16" socket will be the tool of choice. (Never a hammer drill) The tank won't try to rotate because the impacts are a series of short, sideways hits on the socket. I think they are rent-able if no one you know has one. (Auto mechanic or iron worker- if you know any)



When you flush the tank, it might be good to remove the drain valve and install a ball valve with a sort nipple to the tank. You can then shove a tube taped to the end of a wet vacuum's hose in there to draw out all of the sediment.

I stumbled upon this article once. You may find it interesting. https://www.familyhandyman.com/project/how-to-flush-a-water-heater/

Don't forget to test the very important relief valve, too!

Happy Plumbing!
Paul
Quoting this from my other thread since it is relevant and I want to keep useful water heater info over here. The impact gun thing is a good idea. My best friend should have one. He has a bunch of Milwaukie tools for working on vehicles and other stuff.

Read the article and the "once per year" thing and its been over 20 without ever draining. I believe it has a plastic spigot.

Wonder if I can put a hose on it permanently and have the hose come out from under the house in a certain spot where I can see the water when it comes out-- and have it so it doesn't dump directly under the house. Trying to wrap it around to get to kitchen sink or one of the bathroom sinks or tubs would suck. Especially since the sinks would be higher than the drain level so gravity wouldn't work.
 
The music was dynamic!

You could easily drain your w/h into your tub. It is 20" lower than the w/h.
 
The music was dynamic!

You could easily drain your w/h into your tub. It is 20" lower than the w/h.
The problem is getting the hose from the water heater all the way to the tub & then having to leave the bathroom door open to not let cats into the bathroom. Although, I suppose I could see if I could run a long hose from the water heater out the back door so I wouldn't end up with all that crud in my tub.
 
Good lord, now a wi-fi controlled water heater? I laughed at my wi-fi thermostat, but found it useful. I laughed at my wi-fi controlled garage door opener, but also found it useful. When I bought my fridge, I found it also was a wi-fi controlled brain, but all it does is tell you to order more water filters and air filters. Now a wi-fi controlled water heater?
Man, I sure miss my horse and buggy days!
Some even have self cleaning functions.

Regardless of which, I manually clean my ref/frzr filters, annually.

Some things just need to be touched.
 
Z that pan is also listed as most often returned, probably because of the price.

The drain tube has is a male threaded hex fitting and the TPR is female threaded.
 
One thing to add about the pans under the water heater is that they make serving difficult. I don't know if you will ever have to get under an electric like yours, but gas heaters now have inlet screens and a safety device that are accessed from underneath. The walls of the pan get in the way.

They also don't hold much water if the tank lets go.

The easiest for your relief valve would be to unscrew the stuff in the relief valve, put in 3/4" straight pipe (or the pipe yoiu already bought) leading to a pan. Leave it above the pan 2 pipe diameters or more, but not more than 6". Put a water alarm in the pan. I'm pretty sure there are Wi-Fi alarms on the market. The pipe can;t have threads on the discharge end. Alternatively you can smash up the threads so nothing can get screwed onto them.

Paul
 
Snoonyb, I saw the bit about it being frequently returned but none of the reviews indicated why. I wonder if people ordered the wrong size and it didn't fit.

What I meant about trying to thread it in is that the entire tube will have to rotate to screw on and that can be a pain. I've had hoses like that and they were a pita to put on. But I suppose I can just screw it in place.

PJ, that is a good idea. I wonder if the 25" tough pan thing would be wide enough for the t&p tube to drain into it.
 
It's likely a generated market response.

I'm sticking with the flat pan and bricks, allows for an opportunity, as if I need an excuse, to browse.

A little teflon tape, thread l
ube or faucet lube helps.
 
What I meant about trying to thread it in is that the entire tube will have to rotate to screw on and that can be a pain. I've had hoses like that and they were a pita to put on. But I suppose I can just screw it in place.

PJ, that is a good idea. I wonder if the 25" tough pan thing would be wide enough for the t&p tube to drain into it.
I must be missing something, but from the photo of the heater, the relief valve tube that you bought should be super easy to install. It's straight and your relief valve is pointed straight down.

How?
FIRST Unscrew the flare fitting on the existing tubing. (It's the brass cone shaped nut.) You won't have to spin the existing copper tube. It will stay still while you unscrew the flare nut. Put the copper tubing & nut aside.

Next unscrew the steel reducing bushing and flare adapter that remain in the relief valve. They should come out rather easily because of two "helpers": The joint compound looks like PTFE in the photos. It's easy to remove fittings with PTFE pipe dope. The other helper is that the relief valve is brass. The steel fitting won't be corroded into the valve.

Now, put a couple of wraps of the Teflon tape that Snoonyb mentioned clockwise around the threads of the tube gizmo that you bought and screw it into the relief valve. Snug it up a bit. (Does not have to be really tight)

Let the tube end straight down at least 1-1/2" (2 pipe diameters) above the floor, but less that 6 inches above the floor. It should cut very easily with a hacksaw or a sharp razor knife.

About The Pan Under The Tank-
I strongly caution about moving the tank to put the drain pan under it. Quite often the very thin, sprayed glass lining in heaters will crack when you muscle an older heater around. The bond between them gets weak after years of expanding and contracting.

Those under-pans don't hold much water anyway. If the tank leaks, the pan will become full to overflow in short order.

If you do decide to unhook the heater to put a pan, don't unscrew fittings that are directly into the tank. Bad stuff happens. You'll be better off disconnecting or cutting the supply pipes above the heater. The project method depends on the type of pipe.

Peace Of Mind-
In your other post, I mentioned a small tray under the relief valve's tube with a water alarm in it. You really could put a single alarm nearby that will alert if either the tank leaks or the relief valve drips or discharges. All the tray does is catch small drips that happen when over-temp conditions arise or the seal wrinkles. Over-pressure will dump copiously and violently, so neither the tray nor an under-tank pan will help.

I've got one alarm on the floor that covers both the boiler's battery and the water heater tank. I've another for each appliance's relief valve and one under the washing machine. Those are just cheapies that I made from dollar store window alarms one day when I was apparently really bored.

Wi-Fi Alarm-
Below is a photo of a wi-fi alarm sold on AmAPain. It has 4 sensors- Perhaps one for the relief valve pan, one near the tank on the floor, one at the washing machine and one spare? I'm sure many other brands of wi-fi alarms exist.

Outside Discharge?
If you want the relief valve to discharge outside, you will have to use fittings and pipe to suit. You also will have a wall penetration to seal against air, water and invaders.

It's not allowed here because of freezing and because leaks go unnoticed. But I don't think you have the freezing problem. (Also not allowed here is the tube you bought. We must use steel, brass or rigid copper pipe. But that's here.)
 

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Thanks! So the flare fitting itself will spin and I won't have to rotate the entire tube?

To clarify on the pan: I would only put one in when having a new water heater installed. Not going to move the existing one to put a pan under it.

The water sensor thing would be a good idea.

I'll have to re-read everything when I'm not half asleep.
 
So the flare fitting itself will spin and I won't have to rotate the entire tube?
That's correct. At first, the tube might try to spin. You can either hold it with your hand or let it spin. It'll break loose from the nut in about 1/16th of a turn of the nut. When the nut is all the way unscrewed, it'll slide right down the tube. "Flare Magic!"
If you run into problems, be sure to write back. (You wont. It's an easy job.)

To clarify on the pan: I would only put one in when having a new water heater installed. Not going to move the existing one to put a pan under it.
If you want, with an electric heater you could put a little plastic tray next to the heater where the discharge pipe ends. (Like a food container) Aim the relief valve discharge into that. If you leave the pipe between 2 and 6" above the edge of the pan, it's to code. (But in real life, who cares if the tube is in the pan?)
Put a water alarm in the tray to alert you quickly. (Can't use a foil tray. It'll trip the water alarm.)

The water sensor thing would be a good idea.
At #28 in the link below, Ron Van shared a photo of some interesting looking water alarms that you may be interested in.
https://www.houserepairtalk.com/thr...sal-erratic-plumbing.33633/page-2#post-289219

Happy Plumbing!
Paul
 
Hi Zannej,
Hopefully these pictures will better explain about the flare nut than my clunky words in #16 failed to explain:
Paul
 

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Thank you very much, Paul!
I'm awake enough to read through fully and process what you posted. The water heater sits on vinyl sheet on top of wood planks and there's some 2x4s in the compartment below to support the weight better- directly in the middle of the water heater. So, no access needed under the water heater.

When I eventually get a new water heater, I'm thinking of putting some scrap cement-board under the new pan- I've heard in some places you're not supposed to have a water heater sitting on wood. I figure it may also add a little reinforcement (if the scraps I have leftover are wide enough). I would coat the cementboard in Aquadefense since I still have some left over.

I'm wondering how difficult it would be to replace the wiring for the water heater since it looks like the current one may have aluminium wiring.
 
The caution about, and it was a restriction in CA, regarding combustable water heater platforms, 18" above garage floors, was directed at fuel gas fired appliances, with standing pilot lights.

Water heaters in garages, still carry the 18" above requirement, regardless of the ignition source.

Elec. appliances, carried no such restriction; https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/IRC2021P2/chapter-28-water-heaters

While there are some cautions and restriction regarding aluminum conductors, for higher voltage and amperage usage, they are quite common.
 
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I just don't like the aluminium because it isn't as efficient and the cable looks pretty rough. It's so old it has paper on it. If I can figure out what gauge and type of wire should go, I can replace it-- it comes from the attic so it's a matter of running it from the box through the attic and down. Can even tether it to the current cable if need be. I'm debating whether I should get the standard shape water heater or the taller one. That would make the cable run shorter but would make the T&P relief line longer. I think they cost the same amount.

The newer water heaters seem to have the relief valve on the top so I'm leaning toward having the standard size. I won't have to climb up as high on the stepladder to access it, and they sell angled pressure relief pipe versions of the straight one I have.

I'm still trying to figure out the best way to do the full drain. Now, is the purpose of the 2 pipe diameters so a drip/leak is visible? If so, I'm wondering if I could have some sort of large clear vessel that goes around the pipe (but not tightly) just to keep water from splashing all over and have it go to a floor drain that will go through the compartment and under the house. That way I could still see any leaks and it wouldn't be leaking into the house and I could have a potted plant thingy with rocks in it under the drain under the house so it would catch any water that might start making pits. I could dig a bit and make a french drain under it. That's assuming my fat behind could even fit under there. LOL.
 

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