Tesla Achilles Heel

[Steve123]

Very cool (as we used to say).

 

[Flyover]

Most new cars are easily getting 200k miles with routine service. I know this because I’m currently looking for a motor for a Honda product and everything out there in junkyards shows 200-300k.

Hondas and Toyotas have a well-earned repuation for long-term reliability, requiring only regular maintenance. (Barring excessive rust, which claimed the lives of two of my Japanese cars at the young ages of 211K and 195K.) I think there are a few particular models of other cars known for this as well (the Ford Crown Vic, the Buick Century, and certain American pickup trucks) but my understanding is that most new cars (i.e. within the last 5-10 years), especially from American and European manufacturers, are unlikely to last even 100K miles just with routine maintenance.

 

[Bob Reynolds]

Sorry to chime in late, but here's some feedback from someone that has purchased 5 electric cars over the past 10 years.

One thing that I have noticed is there are a whole lot of folks that have "expert advice" about electric cars, but they have never owned (or even driven one).

So ask the man that owns one!

I started on the electric car adventure in 2011 with a pre-deposit on a Nissan Leaf. I picked up the Nissan Leaf in March 2012 at the dealer. The price was the sticker price. There were no discounts. Some dealers were adding an additional dealer markup to the sticker price at that time.

The 2012 Nissan Leaf had a range of 80 miles. You could drive it about 35 miles out and 35 miles back and then charge it at home with a ($3000 then) level 2 charger in about 8 hours from a fully depleted battery. Most of the time, you just took it out to the store or to work and drove it less than 30 miles a day. The car was not suitable for long trips because of the 80 mile range. If we had to take a long trip then we had 4 other gas powered vehicles to choose from. We still have the 2012 Nissan Leaf. Today it has over 90,000 miles on it. It has never had gasoline it it because it doesn't have a gas tank. It's never been driven more than 50 miles from home. My teenage daughter had a front end collision in the Nissan Leaf about 4 years ago. The airbag was deployed. The front end was damaged. The car did not blow up and did not catch fire. The safety features activated and cut all of the power off to the battery and shut the car down. The car was repaired and runs as good as new.

We also leased a 2013 Ford Focus Electric because my wife and I both liked to drive the first electric car. It had a range of about 80 miles. About 3 months after we had it a Chevy Silverado pickup rear ended my wife at 35 miles an hour while we was stopped at a traffic light. Airbags did not deploy. The car did not catch fire and did not explode. The safety features activated. The car was fixed and we turned it in at the end of the lease with no further problems.

We then leased a 2016 Nissan Leaf with about an 85 mile range. My teenage daughter bent the right front wheel and destroyed the tire. I replaced the wheel and tire. She drove the car to school on a daily basis. Other than that, there were no issues with the 2016 Nissan Leaf.

In October 2020, I leased 2 Chevy Bolts because Costco had a $3000 discount on each one that was applied directly to the lease payment. The result was that I could lease the cars for 36 months with no money down and $230 a month. Some folks got them for less. I figure I save over $200 a month in gas by driving an electric car. I don't know of a more economical car to drive. They have a published range of 259 miles. They actually are going a bit further than that. I drove the Bolt from Florida to North Carolina last October. I stopped 3 times to charge. (Ormond Beach, Florida, Jacksonville, Florida, Waterboro, SC) They have high speed chargers at some Wal-Marts and you can charge your car and do a little shopping and restroom visit while the car is charging. It takes a little under an hour from a nearly depleted battery. The cost is around $12-$14 for the high speed charger. Other than those 600 mile trips, the vehicles have never been charged outside of our home. We have a level 2 wall mounted charger at each of our homes. The cost to charge at home is about .11 cents a kilowatt. If you charge outside the home is will cost 3-4 times as much per kilowatt so there is no need to do it, unless you are on a long trip.

My wife, figures that she saves 40 hours a year by not having to go to the gas station. Our gas station is in our garage. We pay sales tax on the electricity that the car uses in both Florida and North Carolina. So the government is getting their tax money on the energy used in the electric cars.

I have two daughters. They have grown up with the electric cars. One daughter has not driven anything other than an electric car. The other is in college and they don't have the charging stations there otherwise she would have an electric car with her.

The Level 2 chargers have dropped in price. What used to cost thousands of dollars now can be purchased for $400-$500. One charger will charge all of the different makes and models of vehicles because they all have a standard plug except for Tesla which requires an adapter.

Anyway, that's my experience with 5 electric cars. We didn't buy any gas this month.

 

[68bucks]

Someone above mentioned a lower cost to maintain an EV. Most new cars are easily getting 200k miles with routine service. I know this because I’m currently looking for a motor for a Honda product and everything out there in junkyards shows 200-300k. Folks run them forever.

Maintenance on a car is less than it was in the day but in 200k miles you have what 40 - 50 oil changes, belts that need changed, at leat 1 set of plugs, my Honda van recommended replacing the water pump before that, air filters, differential oil change, transmission oil change, radiator flush, etc. All that disappears with an EV. So over 200k miles that is a considerable chunk of money.

I only have one vehicle and keep enough gas in it for emergency needs. If one goes on a 300 mile trip there has to be an immediate means to charge upon arrival. The same when returning home, no room for emergency use. With considerable planning one might be able to make it but much freedom and convenience would be lost.

So with only 1 vehicle I see your delema but how many 300+ mile trips does it take a year? In the next 5 years there will be a lot more charging options I'm guessing and if you own an EV you obviously have to have your own charging options. My understanding is you can plug it it a wall outlet but it's real slow. I don't get the emergency use issue really. You keep your jeep gassed up for emergencies wouldn't you keep your EV charged up too? Do you have a lot of emergency trips that are over 300 miles or emergencies at the end of a trip? If you think about it if you park the jeep with a low fuel level and have an emergency you have to go fill up then drive, if you park your EV with a low charge it refills sitting in the garage, the "tank" is always full and ready.

I'm not a big EV fan, I drive a truck. That said I can see the hand writing and in reality an EV would be sufficient for most people, us included. We'll except for pulling a boat several hundred miles.

 

[Sparky617]

Canada has the advantage of a lot of uninhabited land with a lot of water. They have about the same land mass as the USA with 1/10th the population. And most of their population is located within about 50 miles of the US border. Try building new hydro power in the USA today. We may have built the Hoover Dam in 3 years, but it would take at least 10 to get through environmental reviews/approvals/appeals today. Wind and solar are fine, but you need a baseload generation capacity or a lot of storage. Nuke power with a standardized design would be the way to go for baseload power.

I think the fire situation with the Tesla's is due to fire departments not having training and experience in dealing with battery fires and trying to use water where another method would be preferred. I'm thinking of getting an EV for our next car, won't be a Tesla, might be a Mustang Mach E once they've built a few hundred thousand of them. I'm adding a 50A 220V outlet to my garage as part of my basement project because I'm fairly certain EVs are not a fad. Honda and Toyota are trying to promote hydrogen fuel cell cars out in California but it doesn't seem to be taking off due to very limited refueling stations.

 

[Eddie_T]

The full tank theory only works when sufficient time is available to fill it. When one arrives home after a trip it will take overnight to fill the tank. If the grid goes down due to a storm or other catastrophe it ain't gonna happen. We can't schedule emergencies to coincide with a full battery. Trips would have to be carefully planned with allowance for those time consuming fillups, even a fast charge is not fast. So the reality is that EV can be sufficient for most folks if they are willing to put up with the inconveniences. Even if a gas station added 10 charging ports can you imagine 10 vehicles sitting there long enough for a charge (with others in line) or what about a mandatory evacuation due to a hurricane? And there's always that dreaded emergency call that could come just as you plugged that sucker into the charger.

We won't know the actual expense of EV operation until the governments figure out how to factor road tax in. The EV crowd is making out at present but a big surprise is coming.

 

[bud16415]

I’m in no way a detractor of the idea of EVs. We have as a people made many transitions between new and different technologies over the years. We once rode around being pulled by a horse in a buggy and many of my Amish neighbors still do it that way. The analogy is actually pretty close and a little thought provoking. The Amish guy I had working on my roof came every morning with two helpers on a buggy set up as a workman’s vehicle and he lived about 10 miles from my place. I asked him about how big of an area he worked in and he said he liked to keep it under 40 miles round trip and 30 was better for the horse. I asked him how many MPG he got on his rig and he laughed and told me it was 4WD pointing at the 4 legs on his horse. He went around and pulled out a 1 lb coffee can full of oats and he said about half this will get me home. He tied the horse to my shade tree out back and the horse had other ideas about fuel and also did a nice job trimming my grass and fertilizing the lawn. I asked him how he stayed warm in the winter as we get weeks down around zero sometimes. He said they have heavy blankets and will warm some bricks on the wood stove and use them under the blankets for the kids.



I have never owned an EV but some things that come to mind in our little town is first winter driving and heating the cabin? My understanding is they use a heat pump system for winter heating and summer cooling. I’m not an expert on heat pumps but I know people around here don’t have much luck with them during winter but they work great spring and fall in residential. A lot of people here only own and can afford to own one vehicle and the big town of Erie and back might be pushing the limits I think SAMS club now has some charging but unless you want to shop there it is a long way to walk to other places people want to go. They might have charging for a dozen cars but parking for a thousand. My commute to work used to be around 26 miles one-way and the reason I parked my GMC V8 2500 and bought a Kia Soul. I paid for the Soul in gas savings. In the winter months driving times get extended and it is not uncommon to be detained. It is important to stay warm and stay in your car sometimes an extra 20 minutes. When you run out of amps in an EV you can’t call a friend to come with a can of gas. Does AAA have any provisions for coming out and giving you a quick charge? Around here a lot of older homes still have not been electrically upgraded many having 60a service or 100a is that sufficient for a home and charging station? Most people park outside in the elements and many park on the street in front of their homes is that a problem running overnight charging cables out to cars maybe 100’ from the house?



I’m sure people will adapt the vast majority of people around here buy used cars as new is out of their price point. So for those people the population of EVs will have to grow and turn over and it sounds like folks are hanging on to their EV once they get one. The people driving really little cars like I have are mainly the ones putting lots of miles on them and doing it for the economy. I see retired people that seldom drive much not caring about the MPG and driving older big boats. Then there is the younger population driving huge pickups that never seem to haul anything. Some pull boats and four wheelers and go off road on the weekends and then use them as the daily driver the rest of the time. That culture will likely have to adapt a lot.



From the little research I have done if the country switches to total electric for cars that would be a demand increase for electric generation of about 25-35% and they hope to balance that with smart charging where the charging station will know the grids demand and charge only during off peak hours. Balancing the power grid has always been a problem so that could be a good thing as long as your boss understands you can’t get to work on a hot summer day because too many people in your sector were running AC all night and your car didn’t charge.

Around here at least 90% of home heating is gas and I think it would be higher but a lot of people use wood. The next logical step will be to eliminate gas as a heat source and convert home heating to electric as well. I wonder where that will push that 25-35% figure to? The funny part is burning wood releases carbon also but many feel wood is ok because the carbon has only been trapped a short amount of time and if the tree dies and rots in the woods that carbon gets released just the same.

 

[bud16415]

Canada has the advantage of a lot of uninhabited land with a lot of water. They have about the same land mass as the USA with 1/10th the population. And most of their population is located within about 50 miles of the US border. Try building new hydro power in the USA today. We may have built the Hoover Dam in 3 years, but it would take at least 10 to get through environmental reviews/approvals/appeals today. Wind and solar are fine, but you need a baseload generation capacity or a lot of storage. Nuke power with a standardized design would be the way to go for baseload power.

You make some great points. My sister and I are at different poles when it comes to most of this stuff. We are currently in the market for a new car and my sister was telling us we needed something like her Buick with heated and cooling seats and electric start. She said it is wonderful to be in the house and push the button and go out in a half hour and all the snow and ice has melted and the leather seats are as warm as toast. I told her you know within a few years your car will be an EV and doing that will likely use up your full charge and you wont be able to drive anyplace. She said oh “they” will figure all that out so cars will be just what we want by the time gets here. I said you know the country will need to make more electric for the demand and the only logical way is with nuclear power. She said “NO” nuclear is never going to be a solution and she will never support that. I reminded her she lives 30 miles down wind from a nuclear plant and no one even notices it. She said don’t remind me. I asked her where our power should come from. She quickly said solar, wind and waves/tide. I asked her if she would have a problem with a solar or wind farm near her house, and she said no they need to build them where no one lives. I asked her like out in the forests and she said no cutting down forests they should do it where those big farms are. I said that’s a good idea the ones around here are mostly growing corn to make alcohol out of for fuel for your car and we won’t need that as the cars will be electric. She said there ya go.

 

[68bucks]

The full tank theory only works when sufficient time is available to fill it. When one arrives home after a trip it will take overnight to fill the tank. If the grid goes down due to a storm or other catastrophe it ain't gonna happen. We can't schedule emergencies to coincide with a full battery. Trips would have to be carefully planned with allowance for those time consuming fillups, even a fast charge is not fast. So the reality is that EV can be sufficient for most folks if they are willing to put up with the inconveniences. Even if a gas station added 10 charging ports can you imagine 10 vehicles sitting there long enough for a charge (with others in line) or what about a mandatory evacuation due to a hurricane? And there's always that dreaded emergency call that could come just as you plugged that sucker into the charger.

We won't know the actual expense of EV operation until the governments figure out how to factor road tax in. The EV crowd is making out at present but a big surprise is coming.

See you keep coming back with analogies about trips, long drives and long charging sessions but in your post about the Jeep you said you mainly keep it in the garage with enough gas for emergencies. What I'm getting at is how many times do you leave the house and run out the entire tank of gas? Once a week, once a month, less often? For our car it would be a handful of times a year at best and we live in a rural area. If you run around and drive 150 miles, which is a lot of just running around on errands and the like, you get home with half a charge or more and it recharges sitting there. If you have a gas tank you come home with half a tank period, unless you top off your tank every time you go anywhere. Also if you have a regular charging station its a few hours or less not over night. That's what I'm getting at is that with 300 miles or more in range an EV would fill the needs of a pretty high percentage or people. As for an emergency hurricane evacuation? I don't live in those areas but it seems like stations always run out of gas anyway and hurricanes are forecast days in advance so if you think there is a chance you'll have to evacuate you have plenty of time to prepare. The emergency that comes up just as you plug in, yea anything is possible but how likely is that? You could run to the garage and your car won't start even with a full tank, so maybe you really need 2 cars to really play it safe. My next vehicle purchase will be to replace my truck but in 6 or 8 years or more when we replace the SUV I'd say it's 50/50 maybe on whether we would go electric.

I think some states are adopting tax schemes for EV's that will even out the tax for road repairs. That is inevitable but doesn't make any difference in operational cost for and ICE vs an EV, it will wash out. The maintenance costs are significantly different though. Is it enough to offset the purchase price, I don't know.

BTW I still think Hydrogen will play a significant role in future transportation fuels.

 

[Eddie_T]

@bud16415 I see you've given this some thought. There are so many things that haven't been given consideration. On street parking (even driveway parking) I suspect will lead to theft of charging cables for copper value. It's going to become an 'impractical' truth.

 

[Eddie_T]

See you keep coming back with analogies about trips, long drives and long charging sessions but in your post about the Jeep you said you mainly keep it in the garage with enough gas for emergencies. What I'm getting at is how many times do you leave the house and run out the entire tank of gas? Once a week, once a month, less often? For our car it would be a handful of times a year at best and we live in a rural area. If you run around and drive 150 miles, which is a lot of just running around on errands and the like, you get home with half a charge or more and it recharges sitting there. If you have a gas tank you come home with half a tank period, unless you top off your tank every time you go anywhere. Also if you have a regular charging station its a few hours or less not over night. That's what I'm getting at is that with 300 miles or more in range an EV would fill the needs of a pretty high percentage or people. As for an emergency hurricane evacuation? I don't live in those areas but it seems like stations always run out of gas anyway and hurricanes are forecast days in advance so if you think there is a chance you'll have to evacuate you have plenty of time to prepare. The emergency that comes up just as you plug in, yea anything is possible but how likely is that? You could run to the garage and your car won't start even with a full tank, so maybe you really need 2 cars to really play it safe. My next vehicle purchase will be to replace my truck but in 6 or 8 years or more when we replace the SUV I'd say it's 50/50 maybe on whether we would go electric.

I think some states are adopting tax schemes for EV's that will even out the tax for road repairs. That is inevitable but doesn't make any difference in operational cost for and ICE vs an EV, it will wash out. The maintenance costs are significantly different though. Is it enough to offset the purchase price, I don't know.

BTW I still think Hydrogen will play a significant role in future transportation fuels.

You keep thinking emergencies or even short term inconvenience are to be ignored. When they happen to you they are quite serious. If hurricanes currently catch people unprepared it will be unprepared in spades with EVs and gas cans won't help. BTW I don't keep a Jeep in the garage I have a Prism in the drive which can travel around 400 miles on a full tank (and I have gotten a call in the middle of the night). However the on-street charging issue takes out a large number of city and urban people.

 

[Spicoli43]

Hondas and Toyotas have a well-earned repuation for long-term reliability, requiring only regular maintenance. (Barring excessive rust, which claimed the lives of two of my Japanese cars at the young ages of 211K and 195K.) I think there are a few particular models of other cars known for this as well (the Ford Crown Vic, the Buick Century, and certain American pickup trucks) but my understanding is that most new cars (i.e. within the last 5-10 years), especially from American and European manufacturers, are unlikely to last even 100K miles just with routine maintenance.

Yeah, I got a Civic the last time the gas was headed higher, as it gets 30 MPG while my Truck only gets 10. Hondas will last forever, but the tradeoff is they make you go to the dealer for service such as when you need a new key, which they charge to cut, then charge $75 to program it. Then the trunk is an electronic lock, I don't know how much that is to fix, and there is no outside lock for the passenger side.

Going to the dealer is a pain because they do a free "checkup" every time it's in there, like for the airbag recall. They said I needed an oil change and a transmission fluid change, total about $160 or so... I said "Ok, so that's 2 bolts, anything else?" I told the guy I have my own shop and my own lift, so he could leave me alone. I don't yet, but I can crawl under there and turn a damn socket. The look on the guy's face was akin to me stealing his puppy or something.

I don't know about other dealers because I have done my own maintenance for so long, but Honda is like roaches when they are trying to milk business out of me.

 

[Flyover]

@Spicoli43: You seem to be talking about them hifalutin fancy new Civics; as I said in my comment, I was referring to the older cars. If you need to "program" your key rather than cut it, then your car is too new -- even if it's a Honda or Toyota. I also hate this new fad of eliminating passenger side keyholes. I've never been to a Honda dealership, and went to a Toyota dealership only for a recall on some part that they replaced for free. I don't think they tried to upsell me on anything, but maybe they did and I just said "No" so easily it didn't even register in my memory.

 

[Spicoli43]

@Spicoli43: You seem to be talking about them hifalutin fancy new Civics; as I said in my comment, I was referring to the older cars. If you need to "program" your key rather than cut it, then your car is too new -- even if it's a Honda or Toyota. I also hate this new fad of eliminating passenger side keyholes. I've never been to a Honda dealership, and went to a Toyota dealership only for a recall on some part that they replaced for free. I don't think they tried to upsell me on anything, but maybe they did and I just said "No" so easily it didn't even register in my memory.

Yes, I don't like the massive onslaught of electronic everything. I would much rather have a Big Block old Truck that I can climb in the engine bay than my modern Ford that was put together by robots that took almost every square inch for the extra garbage.

My Sister's Jeep Grand Cherokee, 2011 I think, was in the shop for some electronic problem more than she drove it, but she didn't care because the seats were less comfortable than sitting on concrete.

My only exception for new vehicles will be a Dodge Charger Hellcat or a Dodge TRX with the Hellcat engine. I will waive all my feelings about everything I hate about new technology for them. That's it. I have never liked Corvettes or Mustangs or anything else. I'll also settle for an old school Charger.

As far as the Civic though, I would rather have a Geo Metro and get 58 MPG while enjoying the slow lane.

 

[Flyover]

The Geo Metro is one of my all-time favorite cars. My heart skips a beat when I see someone driving one around. If you offered me a Geo Metro in good condition for some nice price or a Hellcat for free (and I'm not allowed to just sell it), I'd pay for the Metro.

Other cars that make my heart skip: the Tercel wagon, the Honda Wagovan, the Honda Civic hatchback from before 1999, the 1980s Corolla hatchback (which I actually owned and miss so much I still have dreams about). Those are the cars I drool over, not muscle car or supercars.

 

[Spicoli43]

The Geo Metro is one of my all-time favorite cars. My heart skips a beat when I see someone driving one around. If you offered me a Geo Metro in good condition for some nice price or a Hellcat for free (and I'm not allowed to just sell it), I'd pay for the Metro.

Other cars that make my heart skip: the Tercel wagon, the Honda Wagovan, the Honda Civic hatchback from before 1999, the 1980s Corolla hatchback (which I actually owned and miss so much I still have dreams about). Those are the cars I drool over, not muscle car or supercars.

I have never heard that description, that's the definition of "to each their own"... My Drool cars are the 1994-1996 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4, the 1979 Mazda RX-7 that I learned the clutch on, and my Brother's cherry 1988 VW Scirocco 16V.

If I was a Multi Millionaire or a Billionaire, I wouldn't have any of the "Top flight" supercars like the McLaren that you have to send back to the factory for oil changes because they locked it up so tight you can't turn a wrench. I have also never liked Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini etc.

 

[Bob Reynolds]

Whoa,

This thread is on fire. Here's some more information to consider:

The range on the new EV's such as the Chevy Bolts that I drive are 259 miles. Even if we take it out and drive it for 100 miles, it will take less than 3 hours to fully re-charged once it is back home and parked in our garage. Most of the time it takes less than an hour to be fully charged because, like most people, we don't drive very far. Our gas station is in our garage.

For those that talk about when we have a massive power outage and can not get a charge I will point out two things.

1. If there is a massive power outage, then you can't get any gasoline either because the gas pumps require electricity to operate. So that position, doesn't hold gasoline.

2. If there is a massive power outage you can use your electric vehicle to power your house for 2-3 days. (See youtube for how this is done)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The vehicles all come with an "emergency charger" It will charge the car (slowly) when it is plugged into any 110 volt outlet. There are many 110 volt outlets in the United States and in an emergency it will work if a level 2 or level 3 charger is not available. Think of the "emergency charger" like the "donut spare tire". It will get you out of a jam, but it's not the final solution.

I've already pointed out that there is sales tax paid on the electricity, that powers these vehicles, so the government is getting their tax money.

The negativity coming on the electric cars is from people that do not actually own or drive an electric car and therefore do not understand how these vehicles operate. There is virtually no maintenance. There are no oil changes. All that has to be done are the tires, brakes and cabin air filter. We go to the gas station to get the car washed--not to buy gas or get the car serviced.

The people that actually drive the cars and very happy with them. These cars have the highest customer satisfaction ratings of any car made or sold in America.

 

[billshack]

From what i read about the tesla accident was that there was no driver in the driver seat. tesla cars needs a driver in the seat to act if something goes wrong. there were two people in the car at the time of the accident , one in the back seat a sleep and the other in the passenger seat up front

 

[Bob Reynolds]

From what i read about the tesla accident was that there was no driver in the driver seat. tesla cars needs a driver in the seat to act if something goes wrong. there were two people in the car at the time of the accident , one in the back seat a sleep and the other in the passenger seat up front

If you do stupid things with a motor vehicle or jet airplane, like not having an actual driver or pilot, bad things can happen.

 

[Flyover]

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15079828/autonomous-self-driving-car-levels-car-levels/
I wish more people understood this.