I'm probably just going to devise my own method for getting the gravel into the hole. It will be hard, but I'll have to deal with it and make it work. The awkwardness of having a company deliver such a huge thing (not much room and a back porch in the way beside the house) makes me hesitant. The criminal tendencies in the area make me iffy about keeping anyone else's equipment of that value. You'd be surprised around here...the people two houses down had a break-in twice (possibly drug house next to them). That same house...their roof looks so bad that it has to be leaking all over the place in there, but they drive fancy cars. Very shady area. The victims now have a camera pointed at their property. Had a cat. converter on the car that someone tried to sawzall off early one morning 10 feet from the house (dog in the house heard them cutting and scared them away). Just all kinds of stuff. I don't want anyone else's equipment here. I'll just have to deal with it and figure something out.
Water drainage hole?
- Thread starter jmr106
- Start date
Help Support House Repair Talk:
I'm probably just going to devise my own method for getting the gravel into the hole. It will be hard, but I'll have to deal with it and make it work. The awkwardness of having a company deliver such a huge thing (not much room and a back porch in the way beside the house) makes me hesitant. The criminal tendencies in the area make me iffy about keeping anyone else's equipment of that value. You'd be surprised around here...the people two houses down had a break-in twice (possibly drug house next to them). That same house...their roof looks so bad that it has to be leaking all over the place in there, but they drive fancy cars. Very shady area. The victims now have a camera pointed at their property. Had a cat. converter on the car that someone tried to sawzall off early one morning 10 feet from the house (dog in the house heard them cutting and scared them away). Just all kinds of stuff. I don't want anyone else's equipment here. I'll just have to deal with it and figure something out.
In the far back left of the backyard, there is an old pile of rocks and such. There used to be one a little closer to the house on the far right side, as well. Probably 50 feet away. They apparently used to burn all sorts of trash and such back there. Probably worked its way in somehow. How it got that far...I have no idea.
The rock chuck just happens to be there. That's some kind of old pipe that someone left down there years ago. Lots of stuff down there that shouldn't be. No fresh water pipes are ruptured. It happens only when it rains for 2-3 days.
The house is on a street with a hill. The top of the street is moderately steep. About 7 houses down. It continues on down from there. Water tends to flow downhill in the yards if it rains a lot, but we aren't in a flood zone per FEMA maps that I have checked. Elevation of the area is about 1,000 feet or so above seal level, so we're not sitting in a bowl area.
nealtw
Contractor retired
CMU blocks are used to build piers that hold up houses.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/24/3285.306
It is possible that the stuff being seen simply washed in an old rodent hole near the house foundation at some point and ended up washing down there somehow over the years. But then again, even if there is a crack in the foundation or whatever...the cost of digging all of that up, locating it, fixing it, etc...is far beyond anything I am trying to do. It won't stop the water problem, but will make it more manageable and keep the equipment from flooding.
The huge issue is that even the sump hole isn't proper. I've never seen such a thing. An "open" sump just dug out with a pump slapped in it like that. I can't put "better" pumps down there for fear of clogging them with mud and sediment. Plus, that doesn't even look right. A proper sump basin with gravel filtering the water would do wonders. Since the former owners didn't even bother to do that, there's all this stuff to do...
The huge issue is that even the sump hole isn't proper. I've never seen such a thing. An "open" sump just dug out with a pump slapped in it like that. I can't put "better" pumps down there for fear of clogging them with mud and sediment. Plus, that doesn't even look right. A proper sump basin with gravel filtering the water would do wonders. Since the former owners didn't even bother to do that, there's all this stuff to do...
So basically the same thing the retaining wall is made out of. Any idea on stacking/configuration? I could build a stand for it, but it would be pretty rough on the bottom of the water heater. Plus, the current water heater would be in the way and a pre-built stand would weigh hundreds of pounds and too heavy to move into place after the old water heater is removed.
nealtw
Contractor retired
If you moved the tank a day early so you could build it and have it ready for the new tank
Something like this with alternating rows CMUs are 16 x 8 x8 so that would make it 24 inches sq, you could cap it with a 24" sq. concrete paver.
If you built it dry and then filled the voids in the block with premixed concrete that comes in bags just add water and a rebar for each corner.
But you height choices would be 10", 18" or 26"
Leveling the first coarse might be tricky if the floor is sloped.
Most piers are just 16" sq., in this picture they are hiding columns, I would just leave the center open.
Something like this with alternating rows CMUs are 16 x 8 x8 so that would make it 24 inches sq, you could cap it with a 24" sq. concrete paver.
If you built it dry and then filled the voids in the block with premixed concrete that comes in bags just add water and a rebar for each corner.
But you height choices would be 10", 18" or 26"
Leveling the first coarse might be tricky if the floor is sloped.
Most piers are just 16" sq., in this picture they are hiding columns, I would just leave the center open.
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slownsteady
Well-Known Member
Don't overthink the the WH stand too much. CMU's will probably be fine, and a dry stack will probably be fine too. You may want to use solid blocks for the top row:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/16-in-x-...168621/100350217?keyword=solid+concrete+block
If you do anything more elaborate, you will have to know exactly what height to make it before the plumbers arrive.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/16-in-x-...168621/100350217?keyword=solid+concrete+block
If you do anything more elaborate, you will have to know exactly what height to make it before the plumbers arrive.
nealtw
Contractor retired
Did you get hit with the storm?
The hurricane hit the upper Florida panhandle area with 80mph winds and skimmed down around Macon, Georgia about 80 miles south of us. They had a lot of flooding down there and a lot of areas got 6+ inches of rain. They closed all the schools and most of the businesses and such. That was a pretty close one. We missed a ton of rain by maybe 30-40 miles at most. This is the most active part of the hurricane season, so things are just now starting to ramp up.
One little swath of rain hit us last night when I was getting off from work and stuck around for a while. Got an inch of rain within about 2 hours. Pumps didn't need to come on. But since I get home around 12:30am, it wasn't really the time to go check the crawlspace for water flow or see if water flows in through that hole.
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I have entertained the idea of taking a tape measure with me and measuring from the inside of the crawlspace door opening to above where that possible water flow hole is on the the other side of the back wall of the hole. Then go outside and measure the same thing. Dig down around that approximate area outside and see if I see anything there. Also, to see what kind of foundation is there. My mother isn't fond of the idea of digging up a bunch of stuff, so I may just dig 3-4 feet wide, down several feet and away from the house 2-3 feet and see if I see anything. That potential water output hole looks so round-like that I'm wondering if there isn't some kind of old pipe or drain under the dirt somewhere. Granted, that's probably 5 feet under the outside ground.
nealtw
Contractor retired
There are easier ways to find it out side.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftyTG6xhYwQ[/ame]
And you can scope it for a look see inside
http://www6.homedepot.com/tool-truck-rental/Drain_Camera/CGPF_ECAM-ACE/index.html
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftyTG6xhYwQ[/ame]
And you can scope it for a look see inside
http://www6.homedepot.com/tool-truck-rental/Drain_Camera/CGPF_ECAM-ACE/index.html
Here's a bit of an update: apparently the former owners sometime in '79 were told by the FHA that they needed to move the water heater from the kitchen and dig out a space in the crawl space to put it. So, they did what we're dealing with now. I was talking with my mother tonight about that and apparently it was a very quick thing. They dug it out, built the retaining wall and put the water heater at the far end where it is now. Pretty certain now that not too long after, my parents bought the house. The former owners may have never experienced a rain event to trigger water flow during the short time time between the sale.
I should probably note that the said hole seems in line with where I'm quite sure the mystery object in the yard is.
Even if I elevate the heating/air system and water heater, get gravel down there with poly on top, a proper sump and pumps, etc...this is going to bug me until I figure out what this is. If it can lessen the water flow even after I have gotten the equipment elevated, it would still be better.
Question: Does anyone know of any place that might exist that rents anything like ground penetrating radar devices for a reasonable price? Is there such a thing for consumer use that doesn't cost thousands of dollars and require a crew to operate?
That's too close to the house to be an old septic tank. My mother's description was "some kind of storm drain or something" around that approximate area that I have marked. My father discovered it metal detecting in the yard one day. Apparently it would run parallel to the length of the house. If I remember correctly, when I was probably 10 I think my uncle may have dug up the same object after my mother mentioned it to him (I think out of curiosity). I think I vaguely remember some kind of object with tin nailed down over the top of it (could be a drain pipe or some kind of flat drain-like object with a cover, which wouldn't make any sense). That was 20-something years ago and I have little detail of it. No idea what it was. I don't think there's a random big piece of tin just buried under the ground for no reason. Now that I've found what looks like a water outlet hole behind the wall, this is sparking my interest towards the yard again. Given that the general area is somewhere outside of the back of the house and the hole is just inside there possibly dumping water from it, it doesn't seem unreasonable for me to think that whatever is under the ground might be related to that.
Lots of people have said that there may be an old "perimeter drain" around the house. I can dig around and see, but I doubt it. A perimeter drain (as I understand it, at least) would go around the outer side right next to the foundation. How common would a "storm drain" be in running from (back) yard to yard under the ground like that, even in older days? Anyone ever heard of such a thing several feet from the back of a house?
I'm starting to become more sure that there's a storm drain of sorts that may be damaged/cracked under the yard somewhere. I just might start a dig out there soon and see what it is. There has always been a dirt runway of sorts in that particular area. Not much grass has ever grown there for some reason. Even grass seed was tried numerous times, holes poked, larger areas of seed buried there, etc. Wouldn't grow there.
I should probably note that the said hole seems in line with where I'm quite sure the mystery object in the yard is.
Even if I elevate the heating/air system and water heater, get gravel down there with poly on top, a proper sump and pumps, etc...this is going to bug me until I figure out what this is. If it can lessen the water flow even after I have gotten the equipment elevated, it would still be better.
Question: Does anyone know of any place that might exist that rents anything like ground penetrating radar devices for a reasonable price? Is there such a thing for consumer use that doesn't cost thousands of dollars and require a crew to operate?
That's too close to the house to be an old septic tank. My mother's description was "some kind of storm drain or something" around that approximate area that I have marked. My father discovered it metal detecting in the yard one day. Apparently it would run parallel to the length of the house. If I remember correctly, when I was probably 10 I think my uncle may have dug up the same object after my mother mentioned it to him (I think out of curiosity). I think I vaguely remember some kind of object with tin nailed down over the top of it (could be a drain pipe or some kind of flat drain-like object with a cover, which wouldn't make any sense). That was 20-something years ago and I have little detail of it. No idea what it was. I don't think there's a random big piece of tin just buried under the ground for no reason. Now that I've found what looks like a water outlet hole behind the wall, this is sparking my interest towards the yard again. Given that the general area is somewhere outside of the back of the house and the hole is just inside there possibly dumping water from it, it doesn't seem unreasonable for me to think that whatever is under the ground might be related to that.
Lots of people have said that there may be an old "perimeter drain" around the house. I can dig around and see, but I doubt it. A perimeter drain (as I understand it, at least) would go around the outer side right next to the foundation. How common would a "storm drain" be in running from (back) yard to yard under the ground like that, even in older days? Anyone ever heard of such a thing several feet from the back of a house?
I'm starting to become more sure that there's a storm drain of sorts that may be damaged/cracked under the yard somewhere. I just might start a dig out there soon and see what it is. There has always been a dirt runway of sorts in that particular area. Not much grass has ever grown there for some reason. Even grass seed was tried numerous times, holes poked, larger areas of seed buried there, etc. Wouldn't grow there.
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slownsteady
Well-Known Member
Here's a couple of guesses, just based on hints from your threads.
The tin object in your yard is some kind of homemade drywell, which may have failed over time or was poorly constructed.
If the previous owners dug out that "basement" in a hurry, they may not have paid any attention to pipes/drains in the area. Maybe they broke the drain pipe that was meant to carry water away from the foundation, so now it flows into the basement.
The tin object in your yard is some kind of homemade drywell, which may have failed over time or was poorly constructed.
If the previous owners dug out that "basement" in a hurry, they may not have paid any attention to pipes/drains in the area. Maybe they broke the drain pipe that was meant to carry water away from the foundation, so now it flows into the basement.
Could be. Supposedly the tin cover was big enough that nobody went through the trouble to get the dirt off from the tin to lift it up see what it was, so it was assumed to be related to some kind of "storm drain" for whatever reason.
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Mr_David
Easily Amused
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I just read this entire thread.
Very interesting but Then you jumped it to a new thread in plumbing with out a link.
So Here's a link
http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=21120
It went to plumbing because I was chasing the sewer pipe looking for a potential septic tank and found it unfilled, which may or may not be the source of the water. Figured that would be more fitting in plumbing than here.
slownsteady
Well-Known Member
Ther's a whole lot more to this saga:
http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=19909
http://www.houserepairtalk.com/showthread.php?t=19909
It is official. Water is coming from that hole in the dirt. Water flow returned this morning with a typical 1.5" to 2" of rain in about 6 hours, whereas in the past 4" of rain over 2-3 days wouldn't even bring anything into the crawlspace at all. The water flow stopped for months after I filled in the old concrete septic tank (I calculated that it could hold about 1,000 gallons) that I found about 10 feet from the back of the house. It is approximately in line with this said hole in the crawlspace dirt. Had a considerable flow of water today and the pump still triggers once every couple of hours. My previous assumptions were wrong. The photos are deceiving. This hole in the dirt behind the retaining wall is about 2 feet down at most from the top of the wall.
http://oi63.tinypic.com/2gy21aq.jpg
It appears to me that water flows in from the hole at the corner and disperses within the hollow cinderblocks of the wall all the way around, then starts coming out everywhere. That's a new problem, because it isn't at the base of the wall like I had originally thought. Containing the wall with dimple board on the inside all the way around and about 2.5 feet of grave with a 3" to 5" layer of concrete on top still wouldn't stop this source hole that would be above that point. I still have plans to flip the furnace and possibly switch the water heater to an indoor on-demand. However, I wanted to see if the water would come back. It has.
I'm quite puzzled. How is this coming from a filled old septic tank? I dug all around that area outside of the house and nothing else was found there.
Around the top of the sump hole, I noted this singular place where a stream of water about as thick as a pencil was spraying out of the concrete of the floor around the top of the makeshift hole:
http://oi64.tinypic.com/28lx46v.jpg
It wasn't hitting anything upon spraying out, but was "bending/twisting" as it flowed, as if against gravity. That must have been under some force to be curving around that much. Possible springs or just the water running from inside of the wall and under the ground finding a spot that was open in the concrete? It looks just like some of the videos of the water table shooting up out of concrete like I have seen in a lot of people's basements.
I could throw some drainage gravel behind that wall and cement over it with a thick layer of concrete on top of the gravel to keep the dirt from eroding out of the old tank and coming through that hole. That's a concern. If that is in fact where it is still coming from. I can't figure out how to "stop" the water, however. If I plugged the dirt hole, it really would just find another path around whatever I plugged it with. Plus, I can't follow it all the way to the source. At this point, however...I've pondered renting one of those inspection cameras from a home improvement store and scoping that hole to see where it leads. If it leads to the old septic tank, I would imagine that it would be open all the way to the wall where the water is flowing from. Not sure if that would be worth the money, but...this is a pretty odd problem.
I also used to think that the back wall behind the water heater was the problem. That IS where the water seems to be coming from out of the hole in the dirt. However, it apparently doesn't flow out of that back base part of the wall until much later. I now know that's a good 1 to 1.5 feet below the water hole. It was bone dry when I checked it, while the other parts of the wall had lots of water coming out of them. So that leads me to believe even more that water doesn't start coming out of the back of the wall until it builds up everywhere else around the rest of the wall and has nowhere else to go.
Thinking about one of these:
http://www6.homedepot.com/tool-truck-rental/Drain_Camera/CGPF_ECAM-ACE/index.html
Its $137 for 4 hours and $195 per day. I'm also wondering if any of the rocks in the dirt would pose a scratch hazard to the camera, as I do not want to buy a $5,000+ camera. It is obviously meant for pipes that would be easy to slide along in and be consistently smooth. Anyone know how tough they make these things to be? Will I scratch the lens on the jagged rocks pushing it through this hole?
At the end of the day, I'm thinking of just having that furnace flipped and hung from the floor, the tanked gas water heater converted to tankless indoor and mounted in the crawlspace somewhere...and just gravel the whole freaking thing to the top of the wall. Concrete over the gravel with about 5 inches of concrete across the top, install a sump basin in the gravel below the concrete and call it a day. Thoughts?
http://oi63.tinypic.com/2gy21aq.jpg
It appears to me that water flows in from the hole at the corner and disperses within the hollow cinderblocks of the wall all the way around, then starts coming out everywhere. That's a new problem, because it isn't at the base of the wall like I had originally thought. Containing the wall with dimple board on the inside all the way around and about 2.5 feet of grave with a 3" to 5" layer of concrete on top still wouldn't stop this source hole that would be above that point. I still have plans to flip the furnace and possibly switch the water heater to an indoor on-demand. However, I wanted to see if the water would come back. It has.
I'm quite puzzled. How is this coming from a filled old septic tank? I dug all around that area outside of the house and nothing else was found there.
Around the top of the sump hole, I noted this singular place where a stream of water about as thick as a pencil was spraying out of the concrete of the floor around the top of the makeshift hole:
http://oi64.tinypic.com/28lx46v.jpg
It wasn't hitting anything upon spraying out, but was "bending/twisting" as it flowed, as if against gravity. That must have been under some force to be curving around that much. Possible springs or just the water running from inside of the wall and under the ground finding a spot that was open in the concrete? It looks just like some of the videos of the water table shooting up out of concrete like I have seen in a lot of people's basements.
I could throw some drainage gravel behind that wall and cement over it with a thick layer of concrete on top of the gravel to keep the dirt from eroding out of the old tank and coming through that hole. That's a concern. If that is in fact where it is still coming from. I can't figure out how to "stop" the water, however. If I plugged the dirt hole, it really would just find another path around whatever I plugged it with. Plus, I can't follow it all the way to the source. At this point, however...I've pondered renting one of those inspection cameras from a home improvement store and scoping that hole to see where it leads. If it leads to the old septic tank, I would imagine that it would be open all the way to the wall where the water is flowing from. Not sure if that would be worth the money, but...this is a pretty odd problem.
I also used to think that the back wall behind the water heater was the problem. That IS where the water seems to be coming from out of the hole in the dirt. However, it apparently doesn't flow out of that back base part of the wall until much later. I now know that's a good 1 to 1.5 feet below the water hole. It was bone dry when I checked it, while the other parts of the wall had lots of water coming out of them. So that leads me to believe even more that water doesn't start coming out of the back of the wall until it builds up everywhere else around the rest of the wall and has nowhere else to go.
Thinking about one of these:
http://www6.homedepot.com/tool-truck-rental/Drain_Camera/CGPF_ECAM-ACE/index.html
Its $137 for 4 hours and $195 per day. I'm also wondering if any of the rocks in the dirt would pose a scratch hazard to the camera, as I do not want to buy a $5,000+ camera. It is obviously meant for pipes that would be easy to slide along in and be consistently smooth. Anyone know how tough they make these things to be? Will I scratch the lens on the jagged rocks pushing it through this hole?
At the end of the day, I'm thinking of just having that furnace flipped and hung from the floor, the tanked gas water heater converted to tankless indoor and mounted in the crawlspace somewhere...and just gravel the whole freaking thing to the top of the wall. Concrete over the gravel with about 5 inches of concrete across the top, install a sump basin in the gravel below the concrete and call it a day. Thoughts?
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