Water drainage hole?

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My first thought is to use the dimple board on the outside of your blocks to deflect the water away from the high value area inside the wall. Of course that doesn't stop water from flowing into your crawlspace, but it might provide some protection to your equipment. You could provide a sump pump outside the area also to carry the deflected water away.
Second thought is to get some hydraulic cement patch and stuff it way the hell up into that hole. Filling the old septic was a good step, but if the pipe wasn't blocked, or if it is broken outside of the old septic it will still carry water from the ground into your crawlspace. An even better option is to dig outside your foundation and find the source of that hole. You have already mapped the situation, so you may be able to find the exact spot to start digging.
 
slownsteady said:
My first thought is to use the dimple board on the outside of your blocks to deflect the water away from the high value area inside the wall. Of course that doesn't stop water from flowing into your crawlspace, but it might provide some protection to your equipment. You could provide a sump pump outside the area also to carry the deflected water away. Second thought is to get some hydraulic cement patch and stuff it way the hell up into that hole. Filling the old septic was a good step, but if the pipe wasn't blocked, or if it is broken outside of the old septic it will still carry water from the ground into your crawlspace. An even better option is to dig outside your foundation and find the source of that hole. You have already mapped the situation, so you may be able to find the exact spot to start digging.
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I'm kind of curious about the water hole in the dirt. You can see the edge of a large rock in that crevice a couple of feet in front of the hole. I'm wondering what's under that rock and under that ledge of solid dirt. Just for the heck of it, I'll be trying to move that 100+ pound random rock and filming under the edge of that dirt just to see if there wasn't some other exit hole that it might have flowed into. Neal has speculated a few times that such a creek/underground stream might have been there and they cut into it when they dug that out. To me, in the pic it looks like the water flowed straight out of the hole and either side of the flow path looks dry, so I'm beginning to wonder if that is the cause. It may be coming out of the dirt everywhere behind the wall, too. I'm actually leaning towards the latter. No water has been coming out of that hole since it stopped raining at 1pm today. Water is still coming out of the wall in a small amount to make the pump trigger and dump 70 gallons about every hour or so without it raining. It hasn't rained in about 12 hours. I'm thinking the water table is raising up sometime in late winter/early summer and possibly varying each year. To me, there's just no way that the one hole brought in enough water behind the wall to back up and pump out probably 1,000 gallons since it stopped raining today. It is at a slower rate currently and picks up only when it rains, then dies back down again. I need to do some water table testing outside.

Not knocking your idea, but if it gets dimple board, it is going to have to be inside of the wall. I know that isn't really the best. There's just no way I'd get behind that wall all the way around. That dirt (like the ledge sticking out on the left of the photo) is like a rock texture.

When I dug up the sewer pipes just outside of the house and many feet away from the house, I dug from the house to the sewer pipes and then beyond the pipes and found the septic tank on the other side of the sewer line. Right before I found the septic tank, I dug all over the place around the foundation of the wall there. I saw nothing that would cause the water flow. I was looking for an old pipe or something. Not a thing was ever found, just the septic tank many feet away.

Water tends to build up about halfway up the wall for some reason, even on the back wall where it is probably 20 feet to the front of the house. There's no way that the rain is seeping through that much dirt on that side of the hole. I made it down there in time to actually see the start of some of the areas coming out of the wall, where they were just then beginning to flow onto the dirt slowly and picking up speed as water build up into the wall. Yet at that time, no water was coming out of the dirt hole. Since this is a (rubblestone?) raised foundation, my digging and the sewer pipe itself that goes just underneath the raised foundation have shown that there is apparently no actual foundation/slab underneath.
 
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I'm starting to wonder whether the builders even checked the water table when they built this place or if the previous owners even bothered to check anything to do with the water table before they dug. Most likely not.

If there were any builder records in 1950 for the water table, any idea where I would attempt to get those from? The city is like one big run-around. You call this place and they tell you to call x place and give you their number. You call that place and they give you another number to call someone else. Then they give you the first number and say, "Well, that should be the place where you find out." :(

I know that it would make it a lot more awkward to move under there, but I'm thinking of flipping the furnace (possibly asking various companies if they can rip the whole thing out and just install a little smaller one hung from the floor at the top of the wall- might be cheaper than flipping the existing one, anyway). Convert to an inside tankless water heater (but I'm worried about the old galvanized pipes clogging it and maintenance) that could vent outside via pvc or something like that. Fill the entire hole up with drainage gravel to within inches from the top of the wall. Concrete the whole freaking thing all the way across with about 5" of concrete on top of the gravel and moisture barrier - including putting drainage gravel into the cinderblocks of the wall and behind the back of the wall. That may be a little heavy on the concrete, but it appears that their coating of cement is being torn up by the water in the existing hole. Granted, that probably wasn't even 1/2". I just don't want anything breaking or crumbling when walking on top of the gravel. 5" should ensure that, right? This should let me skip the dimple board since all of that is under the concrete. In the meantime, a sump basin in the gravel level with the top of the wall inside of the wall, since it might still be needed. It would probably barely come on at that point since it would be just a little below outside ground level inside of the sump pit.

That's a whole lot of work, but that seems like the only way to nip this thing in the bud. Just so tired of it.

This was an inside photo of the septic tank side that faced the house:

http://oi66.tinypic.com/1z3nwgi.jpg

I noted some broken looking areas on the inside of the tank. At least, it looked that way to me. But those are way below the level of the hole in the dirt, so I'm confused. I also saw about a foot or so of dirt inside of the septic tank for some reason. It looked like it had channels that had carved around either side of it. No idea what that foot of dirt was there for. Was it filled more dirt than that at one time and washed a lot of it down and it got pumped out a tiny bit at a time with the water over 3+ decades?

Lots of questions, but the more I dig, it seems like the more I should just try to kill the whole issue and remove everything from there. Plus, I'd like to be able to eventually sell the house and know that I didn't screw somebody over like the former owners did to my parents.
 
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You can see the edge of a large rock in that crevice a couple of feet in front of the hole. I'm wondering what's under that rock and under that ledge of solid dirt. Just for the heck of it, I'll be trying to move that 100+ pound random rock and filming under the edge of that dirt just to see if there wasn't some other exit hole that it might have flowed into.
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Be careful about moving that rock. It may be a can o' worms. It may spread out the problem or open new channels.

Concrete the whole freaking thing all the way across with about 5" of concrete on top of the gravel and moisture barrier - including putting drainage gravel into the cinderblocks of the wall and behind the back of the wall. That may be a little heavy on the concrete, but it appears that their coating of cement is being torn up by the water in the existing hole. Granted, that probably wasn't even 1/2". I just don't want anything breaking or crumbling when walking on top of the gravel. 5" should ensure that, right?
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I'm not sure that the concrete buys you anything. The gravel will transport the water. A plastic sheet will provide protection for the gravel. If you are not supporting your equipment on the concrete, then it is a lot of work and expense for little advantage.
 
slownsteady said:
Be careful about moving that rock. It may be a can o' worms. It may spread out the problem or open new channels. I'm not sure that the concrete buys you anything. The gravel will transport the water. A plastic sheet will provide protection for the gravel. If you are not supporting your equipment on the concrete, then it is a lot of work and expense for little advantage.
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Pretty much anything that I do, I know that I won't get the money back. I want to do this for us and for the next owners. Plus, I'm concerned that when the house is sold, this could come back to bite us later if I don't take care of it now. I wouldn't buy a house with water issues that weren't resolved or at least covered and controlled. At least this way, it would be sealed and have a proper basin and such, and the pump would likely never come on at all since the top of the basin will be flush with the top of the gravel. The concrete seems like the best and only way to keep the basin from floating out of the top of the gravel. That would be quite a serious issue, and it would look iffy if I just cemented around the basin in a certain area. It might still move on me.

It will be a lot of work, yes. But instead of any more worry about this every time it rains a lot, I see it as a one-time thing to fix it once and for all. Can't really put a price tag on peace of mind. I may never know the cause. Who knows, if I could take the entire wall down and look behind it, it may just be holes in the dirt that water sprays out of everywhere. Could be springs, could be some kind of stream that activates only when it rains enough...it just would cost far too much money for me to ever identify this. County maps and info are useless. I've hit and a dead end and given up on old construction notes/maps and such. 1950...nobody kept up with that stuff. Places like the USGS are pretty useless with info, too.

My main concern is...will all of that moisture harm the top layer of concrete? How much is "enough" to be stable on top of the gravel? Is 3" sufficient or should I stick with my thoughts of 5" just to be sure? I've never put down gravel with poly and concrete over the top (even more so with that much gravel), so this is a new thing to me. I do know that the silly 1/4" or 1/2" that they put down on the floor is cracking up all over the place due to the water. They should have known that wouldn't work. Will a thicker layer of concrete eventually break up due to moisture, as well?

As for that rock...this is the view opposite of the water hole on the back of the wallt: http://oi67.tinypic.com/2zxruow.jpg

Whatever junk has fallen in there over the years, I'll just retrieve it out when I do it. It doesn't really look like it is blocking anything. I have an old cell phone that does an amazing job at lighting and recording anything that I need to down there in high definition. I'll check all around the rock first with that and see if I can tell what is behind it and under that odd dirt ledge that looks like water carved out from underneath it. That sure is an odd place for it to be, but it looks like one of the questionable cut-out stones that nobody seems to know the reason for at various intervals around the raised foundation (these: http://oi66.tinypic.com/2dikd4n.jpg). Never did figure out what those were, but they cut out places on the inside of the raised foundation and then inserted those rocks underneath with a gap between all sides. They did a lot of weird stuff back then that has me shaking my head, so not surprising. The rock in the hole could just be something extra that was left down there.
 
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I should probably note that the lid for the old tank was about 18 inches under the ground. When I tried to remove the lid before I filled it with dirt, the lid fell in. There were big openings on either side and it was barely teetering on the edge of each side of the tank anyway, so I'm not convinced that it was sealing water out.

However, over the past couple of months, the area where the lid was...the dirt has sunken down considerably. Maybe about 14 inches or so and is kind of causing the ground around it to collapse a little. I did expect some dirt to settle and will fill it back in with more dirt to raise the level back up. However, I see that there appears to be a "hole" about the size of a baseball that has formed in the corner of where the lid was. It looks dark and like it goes on down into the tank an unknown distance. I packed that tank tight, even all the back way on both sides, under where the lid went. I'm starting to wonder if there's something going on in the tank that is moving the dirt around more than normal compaction. I haven't seen any of the fill dirt that I put in coming out of that hole behind the wall. It is rather odd. There is also very little puddling where the sunken area is, so it isn't taking on that much water when it rains.

Since there was at least a foot of dirt on either side of tank (shown in the photo earlier) and it looked like channels on either side of it where water may have ran; I raised the question to my mother yesterday about whether she thought they might have filled that tank with dirt and over the decades it washed into the basement. A lot of it would have been pumped out a little at a time with the various old pumps replaced over the years and deposited in the yard. When I took over the situation, I dug the sump hole itself out considerably, because the single pedestal pump that my father had there was literally sitting on probably 18 inches of dirt that I originally believed had washed onto the floor from behind the wall. However, that dirt is so hard as a rock that I don't think that happened. I'm wondering if it didn't come from the dirt that was in the bottom of the tank. Very puzzling that they pumped it and somehow there was a foot or more of dirt all the way from one side of the tank to the other as if someone put it there. Then those "channel" places on both sides of it...there's no way they put it in there that evenly. I'm thinking there's some serious water flow going on in that tank even when it is filled with dirt. That's a pretty big issue. I wished I would have waited to fill it and see what it did during big rains. It did rain a lot when I had it open and I didn't see anything going on with water in the bottom. It may be that the water table went down during that time, however. I gather that during the late winter/early spring, the water table may be rising considerably. During the late spring and early winter, it seems to go down.

I'm thinking of setting up little survey areas next the house and over near the tank to see if I can catch the water level and see where it is at. PVC pipe?
 
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I think a test hole somewhere near the house, so you can monitor the ground water level is the best ideal.
I think water coming from every direction is indicating a high water table.
I would bet that when the house was built there was no water problem. So the higher you can raise the floor the less water you have to pump. Maybe non.
If you moved the furnace and the water system, you could fill the whole hole and install a sump but you only have to keep the water a few inches below the floor level.
I don't think it matters where or how it gets there.
As long as you are pumping water it will move dirt so the more you raise the floor and the less you have to pump makes for less dirt to be moved.

If you don't bring the floor all the way up. dimple board on the inside from the top to just below the floor to catch any water that does come thru the wall above the level of the floor.
 
I'm going to see if the gas meter will need an upgrade to support an indoor tankless water heater. If it does, I'll compare the cost of the gas meter upgrade (still finding out if that's on us or the gas company) plus the tankless and cost of the job exceeds what it would be to just have the breaker upgraded to 200A (from 100) and get either an on-demand electric water heater or a small tanked electric. Most likely on-demand electric if it comes down to it. Waiting on a response from the USGS regarding the general land area and water table. Apparently Atlanta has a ton of wells that people are still using that are very productive, and there are also quite a lot of aquifers around.

In the near future, I'll have my hands on an interesting high definition endoscopic camera that works wirelessly with a smartphone and basically works like a sewer scope with lights. That'll get me about 32 feet back into the hole just to see if it is solid and the same size for that distance or just something odd like a rodent hole. Realistically, the tank is at most about 10 feet from the outside of the house and a few more feet into the crawlspace. So, if it is the tank, it should hit it. Apparently it is possible that it might dive into a cavern of water (or empty) that may be sitting there below the surface of the hole and rise up when rainwater fills it up. After 36 years, I would have thought that someone would have at least figured out where the water is coming from. Before I fill everything in with gravel, I'll know at least where this hole leads to. It is kind of a personal vendetta now...I want to know just to know. That would actually be comforting if I hit some kind of aquifer/spring that activates when it rains a lot and the issue can be at rest. There IS something going on in that tank. If the top is settling down and a small hole is starting to form on the top and appears to go deep down into it, there may be water flowing around down there in it. If that's the case, I'll be graveling behind that wall and possibly concreting over the top of that gravel behind the wall far before gravel touches any other part of that hole. I don't want all of that dirt flowing into the hole in the crawlspace...that would be an utter disaster.

When all is said and done, I'm planning to fill the entire hole and have a proper pump system, then be done with it and not worry about it any more. Not sure if a pump will be needed or not, but I'll stick one there just in case to keep the moisture away if it is needed. I'm going to see what they can do to actually get the furnace above the top of the wall. If the cost to flip it is equal to or more than another unit (possibly a little smaller than the existing one), then they can just tear it out and hang a new smaller one. I'll see what they say about that. The house is considered 875 square foot including the attic, which doesn't even have vent access to the air/furnace. So a smaller system shouldn't have any trouble if they go that route. I'll be asking a lot of questions for that. In the process, a proper plug for the new pump will be installed.

At the end of the day, I don't know for a fact that there aren't more holes just like that one behind the wall. Kind of disconcerting, but hopefully soon to be over with. Probably pumped out a couple of thousand gallons today with the pump triggering every 30-45 minutes and getting 70 gallons out each time. If there is some kind of underground water supply, it may very well just be running back in very quickly when the ground is already saturated.
 
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If it does, I'll compare the cost of the gas meter upgrade (still finding out if that's on us or the gas company) plus the tankless and cost of the job exceeds what it would be to just have the breaker upgraded to 200A (from 100) and get either an on-demand electric water heater or a small tanked electric. Most likely on-demand electric if it comes down to it.
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Make sure you consider the cost of the monthly bill for either gas or electric, in your cost calculations.
 
slownsteady said:
Make sure you consider the cost of the monthly bill for either gas or electric, in your cost calculations.
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In general, which would probably cost the least? Natural gas on-demand, electric on-demand or a smaller electric tanked water heater? Haven't had any experience with these, of course.
 
Electric tank would be the cheapest to buy but cost the most to operate but may require an update to the panel, that too would be big bucks.
gas meter
How do I tell what size regulator or meter I have?
Each meter has a capacity in Cubic Feet per Hour (CFH). Locate that number regulator and multiply it by 1,024 (BTUH/CFH) to
give you an approximate BTUH capacity for natural gas. The capacity of the meter and regulator must be greater than the total
sum of the maximum BTU rating of all the appliances in the home. If the capacity of the system is too small, the gas appliances
will not receive the volume of gas required for proper operation.
 
Furnace and current water heater each have their own round place cut out in a chimney stack going out of the roof. If the tanked water heater was removed and the on-demand gas installed with a pvc exhaust pipe instead...what is usually done to cover up the chimney stack to keep water from draining into the crawlspace from it? Can it just be covered over by some kind of metal and sealed around? Seems like the exhaust and CO from the furnace could come out around it if it wasn't sealed well.

I'll probably stick with gas on-demand. That electric bill would be quite enormous even with basic use. I'll see what the meter says tomorrow. Its a typical meter that everyone around here has, but not sure of the flow rate yet. http://oi63.tinypic.com/fx48dy.jpg

Hopefully I'll be able to find a moderately sized water heater that will meet the basic needs and yet won't require a huge amount of gas beyond what the current gas meter can deliver, but we'll see.
 
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We have the typical residential gas meter around here. The gas company put in a new meter some untold number of years ago. I'd hazard a guess at probably 15+ years ago.

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Perhaps someone could chime in with some advanced info on what this stuff actually means.


I see:

American Meter Company and Singer.

The tag, which is partially worn away, appears to show:

Model 1213B
1975 3/16" OPIF.
SPG. 5" - 9"
PV 13WC

Obviously the model part is self-explanatory. I'll be searching for info on the specific model. I don't know what the 1975 is. This meter is probably from the 90's I think. I presume that the 3/16" is the size of the gas line or the flow valve on the meter, but the pipes actually look physically as big as 1 inch in diameter minimum. No idea what the other stuff means.

I found this PDF manual online for it. http://barchardengineering.com/_library/2013/8/am_pr_1200b_series_ds_uk_sb_208505_2.pdf

I just don't know how to look at the parts on the current meter and compare them to the PDF to know exactly what I'm looking at. It seems like everything is broken into separate pieces and each has its own flow rate.
 
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WC is the important one . It is water column 13, not sure what the math is. You will also need the consumption of everything that you intend to run off of it.
 
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