Water Flood in House Basement Advice?

[MichaelJoe]

We are in a house where we have a basement. This is at my parent's house and when they have to take care of house issues, they usually ask the same 1 or 2 persons to do the work if necessary. Several times in the last few years, there was heavy rain where water flooded our basement. Each time this happened, they were there at the basement. The first time it happened, it was huge mess. It was at night and when they heard a sound from the shower/toilet, they notice there was a ton of water all over the floor. They told me it was a few inches at least and even reached a higher part of the floor in the basement. The basement we have the floor is lower in one half of the area and then you have to walk down a little to the other half. Like imagine you have to lift your leg up when going in and out of the shower. They were in the basement that night and noticed this and they had to take cups and buckets to pour all the water all and this took hours. This happened with everyone on our street from what they told me. The water was coming out of this room in the basement. Basically the water came flooding and coming out from this big spot in that room. The other area where the water flooded from was in the bathroom in the shower. That is normal right when flooding?


So after this, they asked someone what they could do to prevent the water from flooding into the floor. They said you could buy this machine for like under $200 called a Drummond sump pump and they would install it for a few hundred dollars more. They did this and had it installed. However, the next 2 floodings they had, water still came out from where the machine was put. That machine is put in like the concrete/sand area. It's not really a floor but like a big hole in the room. Does that make sense? That flood wasn't that bad because water didn't came flooding from the bathroom shower though. The thing here was they still had to use cups and trash cans to scoop the water out. After this, they went and had the guy install this thing where it cost about $1600 I think. I was told by doing that, they didn't have to be concerned with any water flooding even if they were not home or in the basement when it occurred. However, they were told this previously just buying that sump pump machine but that didn't work. They had it installed for $1600 I think but my parents said they didn't do a good job at it. The thing was a bit after this, there was lot of water stuck sometimes later. Later on, we were told by the person that installed this that the most likely reason there is ton of toilet paper stuck in that thing was because of the flushing of toilet paper. They tell me that that person told them, this most likely occurred because of flushing of toilet paper. That person said from now on... don't flush toilet paper which is ridiculous. We ended up asking that person to undo this and they did it.


Now pretty recently, there was a big thunderstorm and rain again and this happened again and I was there to witness it. Not only did it happened once at night but another one later in the day. I wasn't there the first time I was in the basement at the time and this time when I was there I notice a loud sound. I took a look at the toilet was making a ton of noise and the shower stand was filled with water piling up and leaking. I told my parents about it and when they took a look at the basement, ton of water was flooding again from that room where the sump pump was installed. So this time, water was flooding from 2 of the same areas, that room and the shower drain in the bathroom. S o one person in each area had to scoop as much water as possible. There was a ton of rain when this occurred. The thing is my parents tell me the machine they bought does work but because it's too much water, then the machine isn't effective. Does anyone know if it's true or not? They took hours having to scoop the water out and mopping it at night when this happened. Then later on the same day, more heavy rain and the exact thing happened again. This time however, we were prepared as they were each around that room and shower so they were able to start scooping the water as soon as possible so water didn't get all over everywhere in the bathroom. So this basically has happened 2 times in one day. They told me the 1st time it happened, it was really bad.

 

[MichaelJoe]

I don't know much about houses and fixtures but can someone here tell me what the problem is and is there a way to solve this issue? At first, we were told just buy that under $200 machine sump pump and pay extra to have a person install it and have it on 24/7 and anytime a lot of rain come and flood happens, there is no concern but that is incorrect. We spent another $1600 I think to have them install something where they would solve the issue. But we ended up having them undo it because doing that would mean you can't flush toilet paper in the toilet. All I know is that our house and houses on our street are old and I believe everyone on our street has a basement there. I believe our neighbor had this happen the 1st time like with us a few years ago but the last few years they never had their bathroom flood?


Does anyone have advice on what we can do? Basically if we weren't home or notice this, water would have gotten really high in the basement. The 1st time was really bad because we never had this happen and they didn't notice it until a bit later. My parents ask others for advice and it seems they might get another machine. I'm not sure how that would even help if that 1 machine didn't work? Maybe it's a better machine? The other thing they said was to replace something inside the house that was old and they said it cost like $1500 or so but not sure if that is related to pipes or not? The issue my parents tell me is that whenever they check the weather and there is going to be a huge rainstorm, they going to be basically sitting there waiting in the basement in case tons of water starts coming out. What can they do about this?

 

[MichaelJoe]

Here are the pictures of that room in the basement that has that Drummond Submerisible Sump-Effluent Pump put in. Is it installed correctly based on the picture?


In the first 5 pictures, that is how it looks. In some of those 5 pictures, I put the Drummond Submerisible Sump-Effluent Pump to the side so you could see how it looks under it. The water is coming out from those 2 spots where there are holes and the other spot it is coming out from is from picture 6, 7 and 8 where you see that cylinder so water is coming out from 3 areas.


In pictures 6, 7 and 8, we removed the cover temporarily and notice those 2 things installed? One is that black circle thing and the other is that white cylinder thing? That is the $1600 things that was installed. When water floods, water comes out from that cylinder thing. So water is coming out from 3 holes. But as I said we have that Sump Pump that covers those 2 holes but it isn't big enough? Then we have water that comes out from the bathroom shower drain in the other side of the bathroom as well we there is flooding on both sides of the basement if the flood is big. I didn't take a picture of our shower drain since it's a regular shower drain the way you expect it to look.


The last picture is what another person we spoke to said he would install and that would cost $5000 to install and it would fix all these issues. That picture is a machine that they installed in someone else's basement I believe most likely though not sure if it's a building or house. I do not know the name of that machine in the picture. Anyone know the name of that machine from the last picture?


What are the options now? The only options it seems to be would be pay $5000 for that person to install that machine and fix everything... that person said they would take out that Drummond Sump Pump and also remove everything under it like the $1600 thing that was installed by the previous person. At the moment, the person who installed that $1600 undid it not long ago after installing it but didn't remove it because we have to flush toilet paper. I believe that person said the sump pump we have is way too small which is why it couldn't handle the water. The other option would be buy another sump pump so there would be 2 sump pumps ? What about snaking the pipes? What about replacing the pipes? That last option would cost 5 figures? I do know that the pipes in the house are really old.

 

[Snoonyb]

Welcome.
How about some panoramic photos of the outside, N,E, S & W, displaying how the lot drains and adjacent to where the water appears, inside.

 

[MichaelJoe]

What do you mean of the outside and the other things? I am not sure what you mean by that? This is inside a room in the basement where the water comes from when flooding occurs. So when you open the room, these are the photos I took.

 

[Snoonyb]

What do you mean of the outside and the other things? I am not sure what you mean by that? This is inside a room in the basement where the water comes from when flooding occurs. So when you open the room, these are the photos I took.

The water, IE, rain is happening on the OUTSIDE of the dwelling, THEN entering, so, the land around the dwelling, its slope and how it intersects with the dwelling, are paramount to discovering the origin of the intrusion.

 

[MichaelJoe]

So you want pictures of the outside then? But where exactly? If I open the door to the outside from the basement, where do you want me to take pictures from?

Like the front of the basement door?

Rain is happening outside the house and then entering. But it's entering through the where exactly? The pipes correct? Or you mean it's coming in under the house? I am not sure how to explain or say these things at all.

 

[Snoonyb]

Standing in the center of the back yard, approximately 20' from the dwelling, Repeat standing, each, 2' in from the side property lines, 5' from the rear of he dwelling. At each of these 2, turn 60 degrees toward the dwelling. Standing in the yard, 5' away from the walk-out stairway, that stairway, including the pedestrian door.

Please take panoramic, not tightly focused photos.

 

[BvilleBound]

Dear Michael: Like SnoonyB, I have more questions. First, the large black cylinder in your last photos is a "sump pump" which is typically used to lift/pump effluent from a basement up to the main waste line from your home - which is connected to the Town's sewer line in the street. So three questions:
(1) Does your parents' home have a septic system or is it connected to a municipal sewer line?
(2) When the contractor installed the $1,500 sump pump (that clogged with toilet paper) where did they install it and what waste pipe was it connected to? (There appears to be a waste pipe in your first set of photos; please see the annotated phots below.)
(3) Did the contractor that installed the $1,500 sump pump explain that pumps are available with 'grinders' at the bottom that can shred toilet paper, tampons, etc? See for example: https://store.waterpumpsupply.com/30gpmsewgrin.html
Please also explain which holes water was flowing into the house from, in the annotated photos below. I numbered all four of them.
Finally, does water also enter the basement from cracks along the floor, the seam between the floor and wall, cracks in the walls or over the top of the walls?
Here are the annotated photos:

 

[Snoonyb]

It will also be of assistance to have panoramic photos of the room where the intrusion first appears.

 

[MichaelJoe]

We don't have a backyard. It's more like a driveway and there is like a parking spot. So I can post those pictures. But you want me to post only the back of the house? The thing is that room with all those things in the pictures, that room is near the front of the house in the basement. The shower is towards the back of the basement.

 

[Snoonyb]

Thanks for that clarification, so, then please post photos, as near as to those described, of the front of the dwelling. I don't care what your address is, but you can edit it out.

 

[MichaelJoe]

1. I am pretty sure the house is in a sewage system and not a septic line. How do I know for sure?


2. That person installed the under $200 Drummond Sump Pump and it's in picture 1. It's also in picture 2 and few others as we moved it to the side. My parents paid that and the installation so total cost is few hundred dollars total. What do you mean $1600 Sump Pump installation? That same person installed the $1600 but I think he had workers do the installation. I wasn't here when all this happened. The $1600 thing that was installed in the pictures by that person you labeled is 1 and 2. It's that black circle thing and that white cylinder. I'm not sure why you are calling that a sump pump? When we had water flood from the shower drain, we told him about it and when he looked at it, he noticed paper like toilet paper somewhere... I'm pretty sure' it's in that room with all the pictures I posted. He said if we flush toilet paper, then that will happen. So we asked him to undo it and he did so we could flush toilet paper. But he didn't uninstall the $1600 thing. Does that make sense?


Isn't 3 and 4 always supposed to look like that even before he fixed anything? I have no idea about this because I wasn't here when these 2 installations took place. I thought he just installed the $200 Drummond Sump Pump over the 2 holes with the 3 and 4?


The thing that you labeled Sump Pump in the last picture... that is a picture of what this other guy said he would install and cost 5k to do. I have no idea the name of this sump pump or anything. He did say this sump pump is better than the $200 sump pump we had installed earlier. This person that said 5k would fix all these issues, he's a guy that has fixed things in our house previously for other things and is good but he is very expensive compared to others. When he came over and took a look in the house, he said the 2 things we have installed for $200 sump pump and that $1600 thing wasn't good enough to handle it. I think he said the $200 sump pump was too small. He would install that sump pump in the last picture and fix everything and total cost is 5k and he said it would work. The issue though is we don't know anyone that has done something like this for their house that cost $5k. When we had that $1600 thing done, we knew one person that did it and ask their opinion and they said it was good and they don't have flooding. However, they didn't tell us that they never flush toilet paper and also check thing that very frequently and take care of it? Thoughts on that?



3. I'm not sure what you mean by that $1600 sump pump. Are you talking about the thing you labeled 1 and 2? That is the thing that was installed that was $1600. He never said that if he installed it, we couldn't flush toilet paper. If he told us that, we would never install it. It was a few weeks or so when water flooded out of the basement shower drain when when told him about the situation and he came over and then said the cause of that is because of toilet paper and said we can't flush any toilet paper or he can undo the $1600 thing but not uninstall it. I have no idea what that person told my parents when he did it. He just said that $1600 thing would mean the issues would be fixed. But since we can't flush toilet paper, we told him to undo it and he did. So maybe it would have worked with the recent flooding? However, that would have meant we can't flush the toilet so we can't do that.

I am pretty sure the water when flooding is coming out of holes 2, 3 and 4 in those pictures. Does that sound right? And of course it is coming out of the bathroom shower drain on the other side of the basement if it is really strong. So we have water flooding out of 2 ends of the basement. We had a total of 5 water floods. 3 times it came from both that room and the shower drain. That is really bad because you need 2 people and one in each location to scoop the water in a bucket and trash can otherwise water would be all over the bathroom. And you have to be there and ready. Otherwise water would flood a lot like if it's flooding for few minutes even.


Finally, does water also enter the basement from cracks along the floor, the seam between the floor and wall, cracks in the walls or over the top of the walls?


I am not sure how to answer this. I just know that when water floods from that room if we aren't ready to start scooping water, water is coming out whether the door to that room is opened or not. I guess you can say that for pretty much most doors? Then the water goes through to half the basement from that end as long as it isn't more than 2 inches. The basement floor isn't completely flat. Imagine like right in the middle of the basement. there is a little line where you have to walk up or walk down a little like imagine how you have to lift your leg up when going into the shower? I think the basement was made like this because of flood in case lot of water floods out? It's at most 2 inches so if it's over 2 inches high of water flooded, it will reach the other side of the basement. This is of course if no water flood from shower in the basement. But if water is flooding from both areas, well the bathroom will be flooded if you aren't there and notice it. There is no water going through the top of the walls. Everything is on the floor with the water.

 

[MichaelJoe]

The other thing is that guy said for 5k, he said it would take him 2-3 days for him to do all this. So does that give you a clue to what this might be? He said he would be doing this whole job by himself.

 

[BvilleBound]

Dear Michael: Here are some answer and additional questions:

(1) Sewer or septic: Contact the town's building dept. They will have the permits and know if the house has a "Title 5 approved" septic system or sewer connection. If the town provides a sewer hook up, there will also be a bill. Plus, if the house has a septic system, the pit must be pumped every year or so.

(2) Pump vs Sump pump: The small 'cone shaped' pump in the first photos is simply a water pump for small overflows. It obviously does not have the capacity to handle the floods you described. Again, a 'sump pump' is designed to lift waste water (typically from a basement) up to the main waste line for the house, which is typically ~4' underground. A sump pump is also enclosed in a large, black, round plastic container. Effluent from the toilet(s), sink(s) and shower(s) flows into this container, which houses the pump. The pump provides capacity, so the shower/sink/toilet can drain into it until it is full, and the pump turns on to empty the container. (The pump does not run constantly.) Read up on sump pumps online, e.g. on the link I sent to your for Liberty grinder pumps, so you will understand how these systems work.

(3) Toilet paper in the water: As I noted above, a sump pump is designed to lift water from a basement toilet/shower/sink up to the home's main waste line, which is typically ~4' underground. If there was toilet paper in the water in your basement, this indicates that waste water from the toilet was overflowing into the basement - along with excrement and significant bacterial contamination.

That is undoubtedly why the contractor installed the $1,600 sump pump - to lift waste water up to the main waste line.

So, #1, you need to figure out (a) whether the house is on a septic system or sewer, and (b) where the main waste line is located. The ~6" white PVC pipe in the annotated photo I sent to you looks like a main waste line - but it goes down into the bottom of the basement floor, which doesn't make sense unless the house is on a slope with a 'walk out' basement - and the septic system or sewer connection line is lower. Sewage and septic system lines run with gravity only, with a slope of about 1/4" per foot. So they need the ability to flow downstream. If your main waste line is higher than your basement floor, you need a sump pump.

Please send photos of the '$1,600 pump" you described - and how it is (or was) connected to your home's main waste line.

(4) Small pump: If you do not need a sump pump, the small cone shaped pump is obviously far too small to handle the amount of water your described. Pumps are rated by "gallons per hour" (GPH). A range of pumps are available to match the water intruding into your basement. Home Depot and Lowes carry them. They are triggered to turn on when the water level rises, e.g. in the concrete-lined pit in your photos. (They will not pump water filled with toilet paper, however, and if toilet paper is in the flood water - again - that indicates that the toilet is overflowing into your basement and you need a sump pump.

(5) Uncapped pipe: There appears to be an uncapped pipe (#2 in the photo). This could be what the sump pump was connected to, if the large pipe next to it is the main waste line. In any case, it should not be uncapped - particularly if water is flowing out of it! You can buy a simple plug at Home Depot or Lowes that will fit inside the pipe and seal it. For example see: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Oatey-Gripper-2-in-Plastic-Mechanical-Test-Plug-33401D/100346775 This pipe should be permanently sealed, however, with a PVC cap glued onto the pipe. Don't do this however, until a plumber examines your system.

(6) Water from the floor and walls: This is a common source of water leaks in an old home. So after you solve the main sump pump problem, look for leaks around the basement.

1. I am pretty sure the house is in a sewage system and not a septic line. How do I know for sure?


2. That person installed the under $200 Drummond Sump Pump and it's in picture 1. It's also in picture 2 and few others as we moved it to the side. My parents paid that and the installation so total cost is few hundred dollars total. What do you mean $1600 Sump Pump installation? That same person installed the $1600 but I think he had workers do the installation. I wasn't here when all this happened. The $1600 thing that was installed in the pictures by that person you labeled is 1 and 2. It's that black circle thing and that white cylinder. I'm not sure why you are calling that a sump pump? When we had water flood from the shower drain, we told him about it and when he looked at it, he noticed paper like toilet paper somewhere... I'm pretty sure' it's in that room with all the pictures I posted. He said if we flush toilet paper, then that will happen. So we asked him to undo it and he did so we could flush toilet paper. But he didn't uninstall the $1600 thing. Does that make sense?


Isn't 3 and 4 always supposed to look like that even before he fixed anything? I have no idea about this because I wasn't here when these 2 installations took place. I thought he just installed the $200 Drummond Sump Pump over the 2 holes with the 3 and 4?


The thing that you labeled Sump Pump in the last picture... that is a picture of what this other guy said he would install and cost 5k to do. I have no idea the name of this sump pump or anything. He did say this sump pump is better than the $200 sump pump we had installed earlier. This person that said 5k would fix all these issues, he's a guy that has fixed things in our house previously for other things and is good but he is very expensive compared to others. When he came over and took a look in the house, he said the 2 things we have installed for $200 sump pump and that $1600 thing wasn't good enough to handle it. I think he said the $200 sump pump was too small. He would install that sump pump in the last picture and fix everything and total cost is 5k and he said it would work. The issue though is we don't know anyone that has done something like this for their house that cost $5k. When we had that $1600 thing done, we knew one person that did it and ask their opinion and they said it was good and they don't have flooding. However, they didn't tell us that they never flush toilet paper and also check thing that very frequently and take care of it? Thoughts on that?



3. I'm not sure what you mean by that $1600 sump pump. Are you talking about the thing you labeled 1 and 2? That is the thing that was installed that was $1600. He never said that if he installed it, we couldn't flush toilet paper. If he told us that, we would never install it. It was a few weeks or so when water flooded out of the basement shower drain when when told him about the situation and he came over and then said the cause of that is because of toilet paper and said we can't flush any toilet paper or he can undo the $1600 thing but not uninstall it. I have no idea what that person told my parents when he did it. He just said that $1600 thing would mean the issues would be fixed. But since we can't flush toilet paper, we told him to undo it and he did. So maybe it would have worked with the recent flooding? However, that would have meant we can't flush the toilet so we can't do that.

I am pretty sure the water when flooding is coming out of holes 2, 3 and 4 in those pictures. Does that sound right? And of course it is coming out of the bathroom shower drain on the other side of the basement if it is really strong. So we have water flooding out of 2 ends of the basement. We had a total of 5 water floods. 3 times it came from both that room and the shower drain. That is really bad because you need 2 people and one in each location to scoop the water in a bucket and trash can otherwise water would be all over the bathroom. And you have to be there and ready. Otherwise water would flood a lot like if it's flooding for few minutes even.


Finally, does water also enter the basement from cracks along the floor, the seam between the floor and wall, cracks in the walls or over the top of the walls?


I am not sure how to answer this. I just know that when water floods from that room if we aren't ready to start scooping water, water is coming out whether the door to that room is opened or not. I guess you can say that for pretty much most doors? Then the water goes through to half the basement from that end as long as it isn't more than 2 inches. The basement floor isn't completely flat. Imagine like right in the middle of the basement. there is a little line where you have to walk up or walk down a little like imagine how you have to lift your leg up when going into the shower? I think the basement was made like this because of flood in case lot of water floods out? It's at most 2 inches so if it's over 2 inches high of water flooded, it will reach the other side of the basement. This is of course if no water flood from shower in the basement. But if water is flooding from both areas, well the bathroom will be flooded if you aren't there and notice it. There is no water going through the top of the walls. Everything is on the floor with the water.

 

[BvilleBound]

The other thing is that guy said for 5k, he said it would take him 2-3 days for him to do all this. So does that give you a clue to what this might be? He said he would be doing this whole job by himself.

Dear Michael: $5K sounds about right to install a good sump pump, e.g. a Liberty pump with a built-in grinder at the bottom. You should ask him to send you an email describing everything he plans to do (an itemized quote) and post in on this website.

 

[BvilleBound]

Dear Michael: One more important note. The plumber that does this job will need to pull a permit from the Town's building dept. - and the job must be inspected and signed off by the Town's building inspector after it is complete. This is essential (a) to make sure the job is done right and "to code", (b) the work is covered by your parents' insurance and (c) so "unpermitted work" does not become and issue when the property is sold. If the plumber objects to pulling a permit, this is also a helpful red flag because (1) he/she may not be iicensed, or (2) doesn't want his/her work to be inspected. So ask the person who gave you the rough estimate about this.

 

[MichaelJoe]

1. I'am pretty certain it is sewer.


2. The name of that cone shaped pump is called Drummond Submerisible Sump-Effluent Pump. So it isn't a sump pump then? That cost under $200. That whole job cost $400-$500 total.


3. The $1600 sump pump that was installed by that guy in the 2nd job, where exactly is this sump pump in the pictures I posted? The $1600 job is in pictures 6, 7 and 8 but the best picture is 8 as it shows the black circle and the small white cylinder. You are telling me that is the $1600 sump pump? I am very confused with this part. There is no $1600 sump pump picture for me to post. The $1600 job is that black circle and small white cylinder installed in picture 8. There is no sump pump here unless I am confused what you mean?

Our basement is a walk out basement as well. There are 2 entrances to it actually. Was this information important? I didn't mention this earlier because I didn't thought that was necessary.


4. In picture 1, the Drummond sump pump is put in that area. In picture 2, we just lift the Drummond sump pump up from that spot and put it to the side to show those 2 holes underneath it from picture 1.


5. We never noticed water leaking from the walls.



.

 

[MichaelJoe]

That new person said the job would cost 5k. He didn't want to bother with giving details on it. He just sent that last photo of what he will be installing and that is all. He said he would do this job himself and it takes 2-3 days. So what you say is exactly what he is doing then? He didn't give much details at all even when we asked.

 

[MichaelJoe]

Someone else said the job he would do should cost around 3k and not 5k. But you say 5k is about right? But would you recommend it? So all the other details I gave make sense?


At the moment, my parents spoke to the same guy who did the 1st 2 jobs and said he can fix everything now and he has another idea that would fix it. They said he would do this below.


Compact the manhole outlet with a plastic cover.


Will that work or not?


Or is what the new guy said that will cost 5k but you say worth 3k better? I have no idea how much that would cost.