Weird GFCI wiring

[rokosz]

I didn't install this outlet -- But I did replace the supply line from old BX (may or not have been properly grounded) with NM 12/2. Its a 20amp circ, upstream from the outlet are a couple of (new) wall-switched (via 12/3) ceiling fixtures, downstream are a couple of switches (one to light, one to fan)

I had a beeatch of a time re-wiring with the NM and getting the box back into the wall. I did that back in Feb or so. So when the CB tripped after finishing installing the upstream fixtures, I figured all that tightness in the box something got loose. Backed out the box, Nope the cxs were ok.

But, now that I have a little e-learning under my belt: the switch just didn't look right -- But I know I left the existing wiring on the unit as I found it

All I did was detach the bx and sub in the NM (and mess with the (new) ground))

So, if you would take alook at this: its the box in the wall (my 12/2 on the left, the 14/2 heading to the outlets on the right). You can see the neuts all on the left of the recept and the hots on the right.

between the terminals (which are brass/silver per each side) are small connector/jumper wires. I didn't make them I just reattached them

Is this bats? This unit, on the back clearly marks "line" "load" "hot" & "white" but those wires don't match.

1) Could the use of old BX/cloth allow the unit to operate (but perhaps it was _never_ going to trip on a wet hand?)

2) My introduction (and lack of understanding) of the NM forced the bad wiring to be obvious by tripping the cb?

3) or I confused the bx lines somehow when I replace them with the NM white/black

4) Now that I've written this out and thought about it I wonder if i introduced some sort of hot loop? In the pic below you can see my wirenut --that was all black. so: NM12, silver,brass, NM14 all in one nut.

I think think, no I know, there'll be some learnin' about line, load, downstreams etc. and how to wire in my immediate future. but again, isn't the original wiring a bit bizarre?

Regardless I'm replacing the GFCI itself no matter what: its a 15amp on a 20circuit, old and I probably fried something too.

Very Curious, Thanks.

Here's the (hot) side of the unit:

 

[Snoonyb]

"So when the CB tripped after finishing installing the upstream fixtures,"

Is upstream "before" this GFI, and "downstream "after"?

"between the terminals (which are brass/silver per each side) are small connector/jumper wires. I didn't make them I just reattached them"

GFI's do not have jumpers, only standard recp. have them

In the 1st photo you have 2 neutral pigtails, and if assuming that the conductors connected are in fact the hot pair or line side of the GFI, one of the pigtails appears to be attached to the load side.

Where is the other romex, because your discussion only mentions 2?

 

[rokosz]

"So when the CB tripped after finishing installing the upstream fixtures,"

Is upstream "before" this GFI, and "downstream "after"?

Yes

"between the terminals (which are brass/silver per each side) are small connector/jumper wires. I didn't make them I just reattached them"

GFI's do not have jumpers, only standard recp. have them

Understood. They were very short wires btwn the terms -- the term jumper seemed appropriate.

In the 1st photo you have 2 neutral pigtails, and if assuming that the conductors connected are in fact the hot pair or line side of the GFI, one of the pigtails appears to be attached to the load side.

Yes! exactly that's what seems bizarre (too) besides the silver/brass same conductor(s) (2nd pic)

Where is the other romex, because your discussion only mentions 2?

? There is only two: in the first pic the 12/2 is on the left (upstream) in the back of the box , that was bx, I replaced it. The 2nd romex (14/2) was existing and is on right in the back of the box.

A shot of the back of the box:

 

[Snoonyb]

Yes

Thanks, so everyone is speaking the same language.

Understood. They were very short wires btwn the terms -- the term jumper seemed appropriate.

If there are jumpers between the screws on the same side of the GFI, it negates the purpose and you should replace it with a standard recp.

Yes! exactly that's what seems bizarre (too) besides the silver/brass same conductor(s) (2nd pic)

The "LINE" and "LOAD" are significant and are not interchangeable.

? There is only two: in the first pic the 12/2 is on the left (upstream) in the back of the box , that was bx, I replaced it. The 2nd romex (14/2) was existing and is on right in the back of the box.

It's confusing because there appears to be a hard connection with a pigtail, and a separate pigtail.

A shot of the back of the box:

That white pigtail need to be changed to a black conductor as it is connected to the hot side of the GFI.

 

[Kabris]

You shouldn't need jumpers on that GFCI. You only connect to the LOAD side for anything connected downstream to it. If that's the only thing to be protected,then simply connect to the LINE side only, and ignore the LOAD side. And plus the hot and neutral terminals are reversed on the LOAD side for whatever reason, so you may have been creating a dead short using the jumpers that caused it to trip. That GFCI may not be good anymore.

 

[afjes_2016]

I don't think I have ever seen a GFCI with reversed hot/neutrals before like that one; not saying they don't exist though. I did a quick search for that online and can't find it. I wanted to see what the face of it looked like.

rokosz:
#1-Would you please take a picture of the face of this outlet for us to see. The reversed hot/neu has me wondering.
#2-Why would you have 14 gauge conductors on a 20amp circuit running off this receptacle. 14 can only handle 15amps. Having 14 gauge conductor is dangerous. I would replace the 20amp breaker with a 15amp breaker.
#3-It is perfectly fine to have a 15amp rated receptacle (even GFCI) on a 20 amp circuit; you just can't put a 20amp rated receptacle on a 15 circuit.
#4-Where is this GFCI located; in the bathroom, kitchen etc and is it necessary to protect receptacles (anything) down line. If you are not attempting to protect anything down line then all conductors go to only the line side of the GFCI (matching Hot and White as per label of GFCI).
#5-That box is way over loaded for its size. If you are unable to put a larger box in you may want to consider using a deep wire mold box instead. It will mount against the wall surface and give you much more room for the conductors and GFCI. Here is one that you can use. Using the existing box is not safe and also may cause the breaker to trip with concept that since the conductors are "jammed" into that little box it is very possible that a ground wire will get too close to a hot screw and trip the breaker. If it does not trip it as soon as you flip on the breaker it may over time as you use the receptacle. A ground wire may be too close to a hot screw and over time pushing in and pulling out a plug if the GFCI starts to come loose at all and shifts it will either short out against the metal box or short out on the ground wire. Also, if the ground wire touches the neutral it will trip the GFCI breaker more than likely.
#6-With most GFCI receptacles you can connect the conductors behind pressure plates (at the screws), that one does not seem to have pressure plates from what I can see. If you are protecting something down line then there is no need for wire nuts. Power in to line and out to load. If you are not protecting anything down line and there are no pressure plates then a jumper with wire nut is necessary. Hence, another reason for the larger box for the receptacle.

 

[rokosz]

this (as ya'll can probably tell) is my GCI 201 course effort (101 was just the "what does it do", "you still can' the terminals when the power is on" and "it can protect downstream/after").

Its the first time I've really gotten to the guts of wiring one. As you can tell my example seems to be one from Hell. The old replaced BX came from a 15 amp circ. I removed that and ran a 20amp further along to reach this room (a non-function bathroom at this point). Figuring, we do want to restore the bathroom to all its Hydro glory and it'd be nice to have ample amps.

The downstream/after NM14/2 runs to a ceiling light/switch and the exhaust fan/switch

Once I removed the bx (and saw that box) I decided to not restore power to it (who uses a non-fxing bath?) until my wife told me she uses the outlet/light/mirror for hair drying when we've got a houseful of folks and mirrors/baths are at a premium.

So my effort began. Admitedly I still hadn't fully drilled into my head: basics 101. I ASSumed the wiring was correct (who could wire worse than I?). run the new supply and connect b/b w/w.

Now that I know (more) and after reading the above responses and simple tuts on Line/Load etc. I wonder how it (all) ever worked in the first place? A real head-shaker. reverse hots/neutrals, jumped line/loads. Huh?

So I'll replace this with a 20amp gfci (since the Arrow-Hart 15amp is old, likely damaged and the 20 will match the supply) simply connect the supply to the line and the 14/2 to the load and see what happens

You only connect to the LOAD side for anything connected downstream to it. If that's the only thing to be protected,then simply connect to the LINE side only,

(ala Kabris :agree

#1-Would you please take a picture of the face of this outlet

below are pics of front and the "neutral" side with a label that says 2-pole maybe that'll enlighten (hah!) the weirdness?

#2-Why would you have 14 gauge conductors

see above

#3- #3-It is perfectly fine to have a 15amp rated receptacle (even GFCI) on a 20 amp circuit;

I hear you -- I'm almost ambivalent btwn 15/20. but given what's downstream on that 14 and aren't baths usually these days 20? so i'll probably go 20

#5-That box is way over loaded for its size.

Yes I felt that on my first attempt -- and I get the rubbing ground2hot idea -- probably the 2nd most likely reason the thing tripped on restoration (after #1 that bizarre wiring). I'm hoping now, with proper, simple line/load wiring the existing box will be ok. The wall's already open, I'll scrounge for other ideas. with some luck maybe I won't have to surface mount.

Thanks all I hope its been entertaining at least.

 

[afjes_2016]

Thanks for the pics. An old GFCI for sure. Just replace it.
Anyway, as long as you understand the theory of how to hook up a GFCI properly. And remember to look at the back of the new GFCI to see where you connect your conductors. If you are not going to feed anything more than the switch to the light/fan etc then just connect all conductors to the "line" side of the GFCI or your lights in the bathroom will turn off if it trips. Newer ones (well at least most) have pressure plates (two holes) at the screws and it is acceptable to place one conductor on each side of the screw (meaning two conductors per screw) so you will not need jumpers or wire nuts. This method is not considered "back stabbing" so you are ok there for a good solid connection. You may have to get a bit fancy with the ground wire as that screw will only have room for one conductor and that is a metal box which absolutely must be grounded. You can use a piece of bare ground conductor from romex as a jumper. Take one end of the piece of ground and place it under a green grounding screw and put the screw in the back of the box, then twist all three grounds together and take the long end of the new piece you just put in there and connect to the ground screw on the GFCI (if the box were plastic you would not have to ground the box).

Yes, bathrooms should only have 20 amp circuits and the circuit can only feed the bathroom (however it may continue on to feed another bathroom only). I also suggest to people never to do this as with today's power hungry things like hair dryers, curling irons etc they will be tripping the circuit breaker a lot. I try to talk them into at least two circuits per bathroom especially if it will be used by two people at the same time.

If you will be feeding the light switch from the GFCI you will still need to run a 12 gauge romex from this GFCI to the switch box and then from there you can use 14 (although some inspectors don't like that idea) some say only 12 gauge on a 20amp circuit no matter what.

Yes, the bathroom requires 20amp circuit but it can still have a 15 amp rated receptacle. It is acceptable. There are only a few times where you must use a 20amp rated receptacle on a 20amp circuit but no need to get into that now.

If you can only use that box for now for the GFCI I would suggest that after you connect all the conductors that you wrap the GFCI with electrical tape. This will prevent the neutrals or grounds from touching something hot. When you wrap something like this with electrical tape do not wrap it and then pull on the tape to tear it apart. Always cut the tape. Reasoning for that is by pulling on the tape until it tears it stretches the tape. Over time the tape will want to return to its original length thus shrinking and pulling off the screws and then you are not protecting anything.

 

[rokosz]

Anyway, as long as you understand the theory of how to hook up a GFCI .....want to return to its original length thus shrinking and pulling off the screws and then you are not protecting anything.

Sage advice all. Thank you very much