Water drainage hole?

[slownsteady]

I would call the gas company with that pic in hand. I'm sure they will be cooperative, as the increase in gas usage is more profit for them.

 

[jmr106]

They said it is still subject to local code but worth looking into.

I couldn't find a particular tankless on that site that said for crawlspaces. I know that the "indoor" tankless ones are generally used if it doesn't have potential to free down there (and the furnace keeps ours quite warm during winter). Is there a particular model on that site that says that it works with the 1/2"? I can't really tell what size pipe is currently going into the basement.

 

[jmr106]

I would call the gas company with that pic in hand. I'm sure they will be cooperative, as the increase in gas usage is more profit for them.

I'm going to try to contact them. As with virtually all city utilities, trying to contact someone at the company via phone is like hitting your head against the wall. I think I'll send an email with the pics and description, instead. Even if I could get someone on the phone, they'll probably get it all mixed up, probably will act like they don't know which meter we have and that sort of thing. That seems to be the norm nowadays for virtually everything. I remember when the county upgraded the water flow valve out by the street one time. They told us that they were going to perform an upgrade. Those county workers were so confused that I don't think they knew half of what they were even doing the work for. They didn't seem to know which valve we had and I had no clue what to tell them...they were the ones who put the original one there. Then at that time, they somehow caused a spike in the water pressure, which made the water heater have issues and start leaking magically right after their work and we had to get a plumber out to fix that. The plumber didn't know how in the world they managed that, either. :rofl: Yikes, stuff like that makes me want to live in a rural area. :hide:

 

[nealtw]

I couldn't find a particular tankless on that site that said for crawlspaces. I know that the "indoor" tankless ones are generally used if it doesn't have potential to free down there (and the furnace keeps ours quite warm during winter). Is there a particular model on that site that says that it works with the 1/2"? I can't really tell what size pipe is currently going into the basement.

That is an interesting page but it not the one I was at when I posted it.
The outside of a 3/4 inch black pipe will be about 1" and 1/2" will be about 3/4".
I will see if I can find the page again.

 

[nealtw]

http://www.rheem.com/product/tankless-mid-efficiency-tankless-mid-efficiency-64-direct-vent-indoor

This can be direct vent or go to the old vent and will run on 1/2" pipe.
Just a little less water per minute.

 

[jmr106]

http://www.rheem.com/product/tankless-mid-efficiency-tankless-mid-efficiency-64-direct-vent-indoor

This can be direct vent or go to the old vent and will run on 1/2" pipe.
Just a little less water per minute.

I don't think we even use that much, so that would probably work out just fine. It is just a matter of seeing if the contractor agrees with it and who buys it/how it gets here. After researching online, it seems like a lot of contractors are iffy about installing something that you purchased separately online. They apparently like to provide their own when they do the job. I'll be getting quotes from a company that does HVAC/gas/water/electrical so that they can work around their own jobs and there won't be anybody disagree or different people putting stuff in each other's way to cause problems later.

 

[nealtw]

The best bet up here is to find the wholesale outfit that sells a product that you like and have them give you list of installers.

 

[jmr106]

Ah well, the company that I had in mind to install it apparently isn't specialized in installation of tankless water heaters, so I can't use them anyway. It probably would be better to get someone who is a specialized contractor. One issue that I see is that the home improvement stores apparently do not sell the models compatible with the 1/2" line gas. According to the documentation link that you posted, it says that "all" of their models are now compatible with the 1/2" gas lines.

 

[nealtw]

on this page you can have them find a contractor.
http://www.rheem.com/homeowner-resource-center

 

[jmr106]

Well, on a positive note, I had time to successfully change/move both air ducts that were in the way of the sewer pipe that I'm going to change very soon. They have a 4" duct for the bathroom in the middle of two 8" ducts. That pipe should be quite fun. Things kept coming up so that kept getting put off. Comes down, from the toilet and wyes off into the kitchen sink. The other part continues on and wyes off into one large pipe that goes to presumably the sewer vent on the roof and the other goes to the smaller pipe for the bathtub drain. The hardest part will probably be the cutting.

As for that water hole, I did use the camera in it.

It seemed like I either kept hitting a dead end in the back or a really sharp curve that even the auger couldn't bend around, so it kept trying to stick the camera in the mud and I'd have to pull it out and wipe it off. I offset the camera a little distance back so that it wouldn't be on the tip and that wouldn't happen, but it still did. Though in the above photo, it is hard to tell if that faintly visible dark dirt is in fact the back/end of the hole or just what is visible as it curves around. That's a lot larger than it appears from a top-down view. Very well-defined on the sides inside.

A very odd type of soil seems to be all along the bottom of that hole and even on the sides inside. We don't have any kind of soil like that outside in the yard. You can see it even in the edge of it where it starts into the crawlspace and it contrasts very dark against the red dirt of the crawlspace. Those same odd gray chunks of whatever are visible inside of the hole, as well. I'm in Georgia, and just like the rest of the crawlspace and all of the ground outside (which I have dug feet down into), it is all very hard Georgia red clay. So wherever the heck this stuff is coming from...it looks like black potting soil. Even the old septic tank had light brown dirt in it before I filled it, so it isn't that. Granted, leaves and such can decay and create dark soil, but there aren't any leaves in there.

 

[jmr106]

So after getting a closer look, the water comes out of that hole and goes off to the left and straight ahead, which puts it on course to go around behind on all sides the wall. So, there are some pretty big open (or possibly washed out) gaps on both sides of the wall on either side of the hole. The part to the left terminates in a V-shape and you can still see a space between the dirt and wall where it goes around.

At first glance, that dirt on the side looks pretty solid, and it is. However, this looks like many smaller water outlet holes:

and this

They don't look as well-defined and carved out.

The ground on both sides of that large hole has all of this stuff, which we have seen less detailed photos of in the past:

I see everything from fresh-looking acorns to what looks like walnut or pecan shells (we don't have those trees nearby, even in local yards). Some look old and some look fresh.

I'm giving up on probing the water hole anymore. Seems like a big waste of time. I thought it would be a bit more revealing, but that is so far underground that it probably takes days or even a week or more to completely dry out the mud and it makes it very difficult to get good images. I think these holes are probably all behind the wall on all sides, in varying sizes that the water has carved out. The main large hole at the back corner of the wall...photos and even the view from the top of the wall makes it seem very tricky. It looks like it is at the top of the wall. It is in fact probably half of a foot above the base of the wall. That became apparent only because I had to reach down to put the camera in, otherwise it looks further up. Those other smaller holes in the dirt, however...those are halfway up the wall.

 

[jmr106]

So, now that those things are known...

Lets assume that the water heater is replaced with a tankless and mounted elsewhere, and the machine is out of the hole. We've got this big empty hole with a wall, and there are also varying gaps - large and small - between the dirt and the back of the wall. I can't fit anything behind the wall. Trying to dimple board the wall would be a complete failure, inside or outside of the wall. There's just too many access points for water to come in. I need to fill the entire hole with gravel and install a sump basin flush with the top of the gravel, right around the very top of the wall.

Questions that I now need to address:

Is there a risk of me causing some kind of sink hole under the house by filling the entire hole, the cinderblock holes inside of the wall and the gaps between the dirt and wall with drainage stone? That's about 18,000 pounds worth of stone.

There has been discussion of putting down some kind of barrier between the moisture barrier and the crushed stone (to keep the stone from smashing holes in the moisture barrier) and concreting over that with x inches of concrete (haven't really determined how much should be used). I'm also unsure if I should concrete over the gravel in the gaps on the side between the wall and dirt, as this will not look very uniform in shape and would be jagged on the edges, even with concrete. It is just the way that they dug it out.

Should I be concerned about the concrete collapsing if the stone sinks ino the dirt some, since part of the concrete on top of the stone is going to have to go over the wall itself to seal out the moisture? If I don't concrete anything and just put down moisture barrier, there is concern that the sump basin could float out of the top of the gravel, and that obviously wouldn't be good. I can't think another way (without "rigging" something odd looking, of course) of keeping it in the gravel securely. Sure, I could put some stones in the bottom of the basin, but that's odd.

I'm also trying to figure out if I'm going to cause some kind of code violation in doing all of this. As long as the sump is sealed and perforated, it doesn't need pipes actually going to it, right? Obviously, I can't run pipes to it, anyway. Will the concrete crack eventually due to moisture? Some people think I should put about 3 inches on top of the gravel. Others say more. Some say less. I'm confused. Heck, even some contractor friends have looked at it and have been confused with what to tell me.

A few of my in-person friends who know a little of this and that stated:

Friend 1: "You SERIOUSLY need to hire a professional to correct the situation under the house before the house starts sinking, or falls over altogether."

Erm...I don't think that the house is going to magically fall over if it has been here for all of these decades. They've had the water issue since '79 or '80 after the former owners dug into the crawlspace, so...

Friend 2: "The only proper solution is to make the ground around the house slope away from the foundation on all sides. Water will always seek the low spot."

As much as I'd love to do that...I don't think it would help at all. Actually, a considerable amount of the extra dirt that they gave me when I filled in the old septic tank...I ran that half the length of the house building the ground up. Water can't flow up that way anymore on that half. The other half doesn't really have drainage issues next to the house. Plus, the water is on top of the dirt and soaks in...and this problem is 3 feet under the ground.

Friend 3: "Something tells me the water will find another way in. There reason the water flows in is that the ground outside it is too high. Depending on the situation, you might be able to landscape it away from the house. Assuming this is impossible, you could still create a french ditch, surrounding the house in the high area and diverting the water to the low area you speak of. This could be done easily because it is outside. Then, that ditch (the magnitude of which is an engineering question) could be filled with rock and gravel + covered with landscaping clothe ( to keep it open. Second, you are going to need good gutters to deal with the roof runoff. Instead of all this, you could also dig a trench under the house for a substantial drain pipe ending at the low ground. But you would still have the water flowing under the house which is no good."

Hrmm...what's wrong with just turning the whole thing into a french drain? Is that going to cause some kind of code violation problems later?

Thoughts?

 

[nealtw]

By the look of the black wall on the dirt side, it should be dirty. So I think that it was never back filled on that side, they just built the wall and left as is.
I think the holes in the dirt is just from pumping. The ground water rises and lowers and leaves dirt where it is until you give it a place to go, then it will start to travel then it will move dirt along with it.
So if you left it the way it is, with the dirt washing out would continue to undermine the house and cause real problems.

I don't know how long nut shells last, that part is interesting, I guess you could put some gravel in those holes, water would just wash thru, rodents would move it.

 

[nealtw]

Friend 4 says.
If the dirt that we see laying around inside the hole is all that has moved in 40 years, not a problem.

As there is no waterproofing under the existing floor in the hole there would be no point in dimple on the outside as it would not help keep the hole dry.
Dimple on the inside above the level of the new floor would catch any water coming thru the wall and direct it down under the floor and there for would keep the hole dry.

As you are thinking of filling the hole to the top of the block wall the dimple is now a mute point, not needed.

I think we can assume that there was never a problem with water before the hole was dug out or they would have found a different solution to the placement of the gear.
So my thinking is we could probably prove that no pump would be needed if you do it right, You still might want one but I would plan on it as just extra insurance.

I don't think the wait of gravel is a concern. But if you lay your hands on enough use Styrofoam to fill it, it would do the same job.
A skim coat of concrete that we see in crawl spaces here is 2" and really all it would be for is to protect the vapor barrier plastic. And the plastic keeps everything dry
I suggested dimple on top of the gravel in the hole area only because if the hole is full of grave and you have plastic over that and then concrete, the gravel would then poke holes on the plastic.
Gravel out the wall could settle into the dirt a little so around that area a little work with a hand compactor might be in order.
In side the wall I would not worry about settling a lot if any. anything even foam between the gravel and the plastic just to stop it from damage is all.

French drain, sloping away from the house. Great but if the water table is at the level above that of the floor inside there will be no gain.

Questions.

 

[nealtw]

Yeah, no foam would float.

What I would like you to do is pick up a couple 3 ft pieces of 4" pipe and dig a couple holes in the yard 10 of 15 ft from the house and plant them and cover the top, so when the pump is running you can measure the ground water level at the pipes and we can figure how that would relate to the level in the hole.

 

[jmr106]

My thoughts are that they roughed out the hole, went a little too far with the digging on some sides and the wall ended up not being flush with the dirt. However, given the amount of dirt in the floor of the hole, I think some has washed down from the back wall (behind the water heater) where the big hole is. The rest of the dirt is hard like rock, but probably still erodes a little as water runs through those holes.

I don't have a for-sure answer as to whether a pump existed in the hole already when my parents bought the house in '79. Between the time that the former people dug this hole and the time that my parents bought the house, it couldn't have been over 1-2 months. The previous owners may have never seen water flow, but simply may have anticipated it. After the first 2-3 days of rain (we don't get those that often), the water problems likely started. It may have been months before they experienced one.

With the exception of the few times when it has flooded, water never makes it up to the wall on the back sides. It just runs out of the holes and all the way across the floor until it reaches the sump. I'm not sure why it never occurred to my father to add a second pump when the first one kept getting overtaken. When I added a second one, no matter how heavy the flow rate (even at 75GPM coming in everywhere), it keeps it in check never goes out of the sump hole and doesn't back up to the wall anywhere.

I would think that once I put the gravel in behind the wall - even if I don't put gravel "in" the water flow hole itself - putting it down on the dirt behind the wall would block any dirt from washing out of that hole. Yes, rodents (if that was caused by any) could try to go through there, but if I concrete over the top of the gravel...they're not going to be able to push it out of the way anywhere.

I'm puzzled by the shells. Would a squirrel/rodent have entered the basement (because of the spaces on either side of the crawlspace door) and brought those in? I didn't see any inside of the hole itself, just that long gray stuff that looks like burnt wood or something.

 

[jmr106]

I initially wanted to dimple board the walls, but now that the water problem seems to be everywhere (in the pic with the multiple holes, you can actually see where that part of the wall is wet under one of the holes where water has ran out of it before)...I'd rather fill the entire thing. I'm just trying to figure out how to make the fill and/or concrete more symmetrical than the weird way that they dug it out.

Well, with filling the hole with gravel, everyone that I have suggested it to has said, "That's going to be a LOT of work!" I could fill that in a day working at moderate speed. I'd have the 7 cubic yards of 57 stone delivered to the front driveway and find a decent rate to pay somebody to take like 20-30 minutes and move the pile back to just outside of the crawlspace door with a Bobcat. I'll easily wheel that in with the cart that I still have and just dump it into the door at about 400 pounds per load. I prefer gravel to keep it more stable. I'd like for the surface to be something I could walk on, lay on to change a pipe, etc...without having to worry about anything collapsing or eroding away below me. I want it to be a functional surface to keep the gravel below it in check and to be able to freely walk on/do stuff on without fear of going boom into the bottom of it. That's why I was thinking of making the concrete thicker. No more dirt can wash in because it would build up in the water hole on its own, but still allow the water to flow in if necessary. I'm still going to put in a sump basin. I know that's unreasonable to think that it could flood above the point of the wall since the rest of the crawlspace says dry. However, if you look at some of those recent photos...the back side of the wall has dirt that is a little higher than other areas of the crawlspace. I wouldn't be surprised if unchecked water wouldn't go up and over the top of the wall and level out somewhere just below the dirt level. Not because the other parts of the crawlspace have any water issues, but because of the pressure of it spraying out of the walls and having that big open space there.

At the end of the day, I think it is just the water table around here. I'm going to put some pipes in the ground and see what the water table is like when it rains a lot again. I'll bet that water is probably a foot or two below the surface.

Would a smaller pipe like 2" PVC be just as good? 4" seems a bit awkward to get into the ground at 3 feet down, but we'll see.

 

[nealtw]

Who knows how long nut shells last underground, and what was o the land before houses, maybe a nut farm, burnt stumps, who knows?
I really don't think you have rodents or they would be a problem after your work is done.
After the furnace and water are moved you could just move the pump up and monitor the height of full flood and see where the new floor should go.
If you only have to come up a foot, you would move less gravel and leave a good area for someone working on the gear.

 

[nealtw]

I initially wanted to dimple board the walls, but now that the water problem seems to be everywhere (in the pic with the multiple holes, you can actually see where that part of the wall is wet under one of the holes where water has ran out of it before)...I'd rather fill the entire thing. I'm just trying to figure out how to make the fill and/or concrete more symmetrical than the weird way that they dug it out.

Well, with filling the hole with gravel, everyone that I have suggested it to has said, "That's going to be a LOT of work!" I could fill that in a day working at moderate speed. I'd have the 7 cubic yards of 57 stone delivered to the front driveway and find a decent rate to pay somebody to take like 20-30 minutes and move the pile back to just outside of the crawlspace door with a Bobcat. I'll easily wheel that in with the cart that I still have and just dump it into the door at about 400 pounds per load. I prefer gravel to keep it more stable. I'd like for the surface to be something I could walk on, lay on to change a pipe, etc...without having to worry about anything collapsing or eroding away below me. I want it to be a functional surface to keep the gravel below it in check and to be able to freely walk on/do stuff on without fear of going boom into the bottom of it. That's why I was thinking of making the concrete thicker. No more dirt can wash in because it would build up in the water hole on its own, but still allow the water to flow in if necessary. I'm still going to put in a sump basin. I know that's unreasonable to think that it could flood above the point of the wall since the rest of the crawlspace says dry. However, if you look at some of those recent photos...the back side of the wall has dirt that is a little higher than other areas of the crawlspace. I wouldn't be surprised if unchecked water wouldn't go up and over the top of the wall and level out somewhere just below the dirt level. Not because the other parts of the crawlspace have any water issues, but because of the pressure of it spraying out of the walls and having that big open space there.

At the end of the day, I think it is just the water table around here. I'm going to put some pipes in the ground and see what the water table is like when it rains a lot again. I'll bet that water is probably a foot or two below the surface.

Would a smaller pipe like 2" PVC be just as good? 4" seems a bit awkward to get into the ground at 3 feet down, but we'll see.

I think finding full flood level will change some of the thinking so the pipes will tell the story.

If you dig a hole down close to floor level in the basement.

Not sure how one size pipe would be easier than another.
You may need to make or use something that floats to get a measurement.

The quick and easy way to get a close measurement for level.
Go out the front and back in line with the side of the house.
If you hook a string to the other end of the building and pull it tight. and when it lines up with a row of bricks you are close to level. then you can figure out how high that row of bricks are above the floor in the basement.
I would want to be 10 or 15 ft away from the house, the further away the less pump effect you will get.

 

[slownsteady]

I have said this before in a few of the threads you have on the subject; if the the equipment is not in the hole...and your pump arrangement is doing it's job....then you don't really need to fill it.
But in either case (and especially if you fill it) you need to put filter fabric around the walls to catch that soil. The gravel will hold up the fabric once it is filled in;....... or you will need to rig something if not filled.
About acorns and stuff: if there is an old broken pipe back behind that hole, chipmunks etc. could be using it for storage or shelter and the shells are washing out into your crawlspace.