How do we fix our healthcare system in America?

[Chris]

We all have the same fair opportunity to better ourselves. Life is what you make it. I've been on most levels of it and have seen.

 

[nealtw]

We all have the same fair opportunity to better ourselves. Life is what you make it. I've been on most levels of it and have seen.

So why aren't you a billionaire?

 

[frodo]

That is my point. Every one will have a different idea of what fair is.

let a man who works for his money keep his money
if you dont work you do not have money
if you have a problem with what a ceo makes, do not buy his product.

it all sounds like petty jealousy to me.
cry cry cry, he has more marbles than i do

give me his marbles, I want his marbles or i will hold my breath and stomp my feet.

that is what this bull**** reminds me of, a spoiled 6 year old

 

[Chris]

So why aren't you a billionaire?

Don't want the stress and headache.

 

[slownsteady]

Don't want the stress and headache.

With a billion $$ you could buy all the aspirin and Zoloft you need.

 

[slownsteady]

OK here's my 2¢. I think we need to remove the profit motivation from the equation, both from insurance and from providers. I also have something of an issue with a hospital CEO or an insurance CEO making tens of millions of dollars, they're not worth it. Reduce it and pay the people that actually do the work more. Transparency in cost is another major issue. If your doctor orders a test for you just try to find out what the cost will be. Its like a snipe hunt. We're told we're bad because we don't check costs but that's bull. My doc ordered a stress test for me 3 weeks ago and I'm still waiting to get approval from the insurance company. One place told me the test was $900 while another within 1 mile told me it was $5600. What's up with that? When I call for a price on a procedure the provider should be required to quote a price instantly within +/- a percentage (10%?). No other industry hides the cost from the consumer like the medical industry. I also have trouble rationalizing that the cost of your health insurance and the cost of your medical treatment is directly linked to the returns that some anonymous shareholder is expecting.

Now on the cost increases since the ACA came about. Insurance cost have been going through the roof for far longer than the ACA has been around. The facts say that the rate of increase has slowed considerably under the ACA, on average. There are locations though where that is far from the truth. Also the policies that are required now are different than before the ACA. No caps on lifetime benefits. Preventative care is paid 100%. Kids can stay on your policy until age 26. No pre-existing condition refusals.

Now to the OP, these are all things that contribute to increasing costs. Now look at the old system. Let's say your business had a really bad year and you dropped insurance for a while to get by and make ends meet. If you or a family member got seriously ill before you signed back up you would never get insurance again period. And this was true for employer plans as well. If you had a pre-existing condition the company would have to fight with the insurance company to get you coverage. I saw it more than once with my employer.

And one last thought. People gripe about paying for people that get free coverage. I look at it this way. What cost more? Person A receives totally free insurance from Medicaid or something. Person B has no insurance at all.
So what cost you more, when person A gets a nasty case of the flu and goes to the doctors office to get checked out and treated, or person B that just goes to the ER (the highest possible cost) for the same thing? You will still pay for either person whether you like it or not.

Can I "like" this a couple more times?

 

[zannej]

There is a petition going around (don't have the link yet) to take away the medical benefits that Congress gets. If Congress had to jump through the same hoops as average citizens to get medical coverage, maybe they would care a little more about it and be more invested in making a plan that works. They have very little motivation to make a good system unless they are affected by it.

 

[slownsteady]

Socialism be damned..........and Capitalism be damned............and politicians be damned!
Each and every one of you has to ask yourself what you value more.. a few extra dollars or the well being of your fellow man.
Sure you can be charitable to your neighbor because you know he's a hard working guy who had a bad break. But how many of you can cough up $20K - $100K when he gets cancer? We need to have a healthcare system that can cover that kind of illness without a Gofundme page.
We need a healthcare system that will offer preventative care to some poor person who gets exposed to ebola or zika, without regard to income.
The ACA may not be perfect, but it solves many problems which were present in the unregulated healthcare system. Things you may have forgotten about even though they are only a few years ago.
You want to improve it? Fine, You want to change it's name? Fine. But do you think that Trump(don't)Care fixes this?

 

[bud16415]

Socialism be damned..........and Capitalism be damned............and politicians be damned!
Each and every one of you has to ask yourself what you value more.. a few extra dollars or the well being of your fellow man.
Sure you can be charitable to your neighbor because you know he's a hard working guy who had a bad break. But how many of you can cough up $20K - $100K when he gets cancer? We need to have a healthcare system that can cover that kind of illness without a Gofundme page.
We need a healthcare system that will offer preventative care to some poor person who gets exposed to ebola or zika, without regard to income.
The ACA may not be perfect, but it solves many problems which were present in the unregulated healthcare system. Things you may have forgotten about even though they are only a few years ago.
You want to improve it? Fine, You want to change it's name? Fine. But do you think that Trump(don't)Care fixes this?

I’m with you brother. That would be a wonderful world.

We have went full circle in this thread and we are back to where Chris started this. In order to move in the utopian direction just as starters Chris is going to have to pay an amount equal or greater than another mortgage payment. That was just under the beginning of the ACA while it was still loosing money getting going, it was going to get worse.

Some people in the republican party were in favor of letting ACA run it’s course and after it imploded and taxes and health care payments on guys like us strangled us. There would be a revolt and the democratic party would have to own the mess. With this ACA lite they are doing now it is going to be every bit the same thing and the blame will be laid on the republican door step. I agree they should have done nothing.

200 years ago there was no cancer centers and ct scanners and where did all this wonderful innovations come from in this country. General Electric the worst evil capitalist organization of them all a evil corporation with CEO’s making hundreds of millions a year and rich stock holders getting richer invented this stuff. Not because they wanted to help mankind as that was a side effect but because they wanted to make money. Another side effect of this making money is they employ 300,000 people who pay taxes and buy things keeping a few more million people working and paying taxes. And low and behold all those working people and a whole bunch of unfortunate people have the benefits of having their cancer cured.

This country went from people dieing from a minor accident to being the leaders of the world and life expectancies double or triple in a couple hundred years as the result of a cruel selfish system that made people contribute because they wanted better.

It is sad to see someone die because they don’t have healthcare I agree. But the solution is more of what made us great and gave us all the innovations in healthcare in the first place. There is nothing wrong in wishing and dreaming for utopia but wishing and hoping doesn’t make it happen.

It is a simple ledger sheet money in money out goods produced and growth. Money makes the wheels go around it cant just be given away without something in return.

They say money is in circulation. Think about that it is circulating. Like a pump and water going out and the pressure turning a machine and producing something and then returning back to the pump to go around again. The system we have is water being pumped out and a million spouts draining off the water and very little water or pressure at the end to turn the machine and hardly any water coming back to the pump. One case is circulation and the other is leakage.


All people want to help the people that cant help themselves. It is the bigger picture and knowing you can’t rob Peter to pay Paul as my mother used to say.

 

[slownsteady]

God bless 'ya, Bud, and I hope you're always lucky enough to stay on the bright side of that lucky break. The kind of break where some low income guy with the flu who is driving to the ER because he can't get into a doctor's office doesn't sneeze or get dizzy and cross the lane right in front of you. The kind of a break where you're on vacation in Florida and happen to get a mosquito bite that turns out to carry Zika because there was no money to fight the spread of infection. The kind of break where the only hospital within a hundred miles of Erie doesn't close because of unpaid bills.
Sometimes the repayment for money spent is not a direct transaction.
Remember Milton Freeman was just a guy with a theory and Atlas Shrugged is just a science-fiction novel.

 

[nealtw]

Cite

World > World Statistics > Health and Social Statistics
Life Expectancy for Countries, 2015
Find the average life expectancy for each country and the world. As of 2014, the country with the highest life expectancy is Monaco at 89.52 years; the country with the lowest life expectancy is Chad at just 49.81 years.

Rank Country (years) Date
1 Monaco 89.52 2015 est.
2 Japan 84.74 2015 est.
3 Singapore 84.68 2015 est.
4 Macau 84.51 2015 est.
5 San Marino 83.24 2015 est.
6 Iceland 82.97 2015 est.
7 Hong Kong 82.86 2015 est.
8 Andorra 82.72 2015 est.
9 Switzerland 82.50 2015 est.
10 Guernsey 82.47 2015 est.
11 Israel 82.27 2015 est.
12 Luxembourg 82.17 2015 est.
13 Australia 82.15 2015 est.
14 Italy 82.12 2015 est.
15 Sweden 81.98 2015 est.
16 Liechtenstein 81.77 2015 est.
17 Jersey 81.76 2015 est.
18 Canada 81.76 2015 est.
19 France 81.75 2015 est.
20 Norway 81.70 2015 est.
21 Spain 81.57 2015 est.
22 Austria 81.39 2015 est.
23 Anguilla 81.31 2015 est.
24 Netherlands 81.23 2015 est.
25 Bermuda 81.15 2015 est.
26 Cayman Islands 81.13 2015 est.
27 Isle of Man 81.09 2015 est.
28 New Zealand 81.05 2015 est.
29 Belgium 80.88 2015 est.
30 Finland 80.77 2015 est.
31 Ireland 80.68 2015 est.
32 Germany 80.57 2015 est.
33 United Kingdom 80.54 2015 est.
34 Greece 80.43 2015 est.
35 Saint Pierre and Miquelon 80.39 2015 est.
36 Malta 80.25 2015 est.
37 Faroe Islands 80.24 2015 est.
38 European Union 80.20 2015 est.
39 Korea, South 80.04 2015 est.
40 Taiwan 79.98 2015 est.
41 Virgin Islands 79.89 2015 est.
42 Turks and Caicos Islands 79.69 2015 est.
43 United States 79.68 2015 est.
44 Wallis and Futuna 79.57 2015 est.
45 Saint Helena, Ascension,
and Tristan da Cunha

 

[slownsteady]

Make America great again.

 

[Chris]

I'm going to go back a few posts and agree with us needed to get rid of the government health care program. Not the aca but the program that everyone in government is on. All the way down to the local government level. None of these people have any clue the reality that we are talking about. They are on a great plan that is affordable and covers everything they need. Once they are in my shoes of trying to figure out why it is costing them another mortgage to have something they don't use then they might think about an actual fix.

Last year it cost me. 20,600 dollars to see the doctor one time for a prescription of ibuprofen because of my bad back and they couldn't even give me a drug that works because they are afraid I'll become an addict. Almost 21k for a bottle of motrin. Tell me how that is fair to me? Or am I the exception? Should I feel good because I helped someone else get their care for free or should I be upset because I paid a mortgage while they paid nothing? Where is their incentive to better themselves when they know that if they do and make more money it will be taken away.

I just did my taxes and because I budgeted properly, didn't buy anything new for my company and paid off old debt I was rewarded with a higher tax rate of 38%. How many of you paid 38% of your income to taxes before having to pay this second mortgage of health Insurance?

 

[nealtw]

I'm going to go back a few posts and agree with us needed to get rid of the government health care program. Not the aca but the program that everyone in government is on. All the way down to the local government level. None of these people have any clue the reality that we are talking about. They are on a great plan that is affordable and covers everything they need. Once they are in my shoes of trying to figure out why it is costing them another mortgage to have something they don't use then they might think about an actual fix.

Last year it cost me. 20,600 dollars to see the doctor one time for a prescription of ibuprofen because of my bad back and they couldn't even give me a drug that works because they are afraid I'll become an addict. Almost 21k for a bottle of motrin. Tell me how that is fair to me? Or am I the exception? Should I feel good because I helped someone else get their care for free or should I be upset because I paid a mortgage while they paid nothing? Where is their incentive to better themselves when they know that if they do and make more money it will be taken away.

I just did my taxes and because I budgeted properly, didn't buy anything new for my company and paid off old debt I was rewarded with a higher tax rate of 38%. How many of you paid 38% of your income to taxes before having to pay this second mortgage of health Insurance?

No that does not make sense. :hide:

 

[bud16415]

God bless 'ya, Bud, and I hope you're always lucky enough to stay on the bright side of that lucky break. The kind of break where some low income guy with the flu who is driving to the ER because he can't get into a doctor's office doesn't sneeze or get dizzy and cross the lane right in front of you. The kind of a break where you're on vacation in Florida and happen to get a mosquito bite that turns out to carry Zika because there was no money to fight the spread of infection. The kind of break where the only hospital within a hundred miles of Erie doesn't close because of unpaid bills.
Sometimes the repayment for money spent is not a direct transaction.
Remember Milton Freeman was just a guy with a theory and Atlas Shrugged is just a science-fiction novel.

I do worry about those things and I know if the poor guy going to the ER had a good job he would most likely have insurance also and could go to the doctor and the doctor would not have to lose money on him and tack it on to the next guy (Chris) coming thru the door. If that guy could keep his cost down he might be going to Fla and Disney World with his kids to enjoy the money he made just a little. The employ at Disney would now have a job he didn’t have because people could afford to go there again. Those Disney people working now would be paying taxes and there would be money to fund infectious disease control and we could finally wipe out Zika. Oh and me with all this chain reaction happening in prosperity in the country I could finally up my United Way contribution from 2% to 3%.

 

[Chris]

I think I fall into the category of the ones that get hit the hardest. I am self employed and on paper I make good money. Remember on paper, all those big numbers never reach my pocket book.

All that money I spent on my company only gets a partial write off depending on what I spend it on. I then learned that if I spend it on things that are truly important and not just buying new crap I don't need the tax rate goes up. Paying off old debt is also pass through income so paying 30k towards paying off an old loan is considered income like I put it in my pocket so not only do I pay the 30k to finish a loan I also get to pay 38% of that to the government because that could have gone in my pocket.

When all said and done I take home as much as any other full time worker with a decent job and on top of that I loose the child tax credit and I can't write off my child care and a few other things because that pass through income puts me in a different bracket which also raises my tax rate because now I am somehow making all this money. I then get a tax bill for more money than I actually paid myself. I have learned a lot about how our government runs by running my business these last 9 years and that is why I am throwing in the rope now. There is no love for someone trying to make something of their life by starting a business.

At this point in my life you can't tell me that I need to think about my fellow man and his free health care when my government does nothing to encourage me to continue moving ahead except try and suck any bit of money I might have made every year.

 

[nealtw]

I think I fall into the category of the ones that get hit the hardest. I am self employed and on paper I make good money. Remember on paper, all those big numbers never reach my pocket book.

All that money I spent on my company only gets a partial write off depending on what I spend it on. I then learned that if I spend it on things that are truly important and not just buying new crap I don't need the tax rate goes up. Paying off old debt is also pass through income so paying 30k towards paying off an old loan is considered income like I put it in my pocket so not only do I pay the 30k to finish a loan I also get to pay 38% of that to the government because that could have gone in my pocket.

When all said and done I take home as much as any other full time worker with a decent job and on top of that I loose the child tax credit and I can't write off my child care and a few other things because that pass through income puts me in a different bracket which also raises my tax rate because now I am somehow making all this money. I then get a tax bill for more money than I actually paid myself. I have learned a lot about how our government runs by running my business these last 9 years and that is why I am throwing in the rope now. There is no love for someone trying to make something of their life by starting a business.

At this point in my life you can't tell me that I need to think about my fellow man and his free health care when my government does nothing to encourage me to continue moving ahead except try and suck any bit of money I might have made every year.

Fire your accountant.

 

[bud16415]

Fire your accountant.

If Chris was paying 15% instead of 38% lets ask him what he would do with the difference? My guess it would go back into the business and growing the business and maybe a little more for himself and his family. After all the idea is growth so you can make more and then do more of the same. Growth means hiring people buying equipment. Both of those mean jobs and jobs mean more taxes. Now as he gets bigger he wants to keep the people that are making him wealthy and doesn’t want them to go find another job. He finds one way of keeping them around is paying them more and they take the money and buy insurance or he offers them insurance as a benefit of sticking with him.

Instead he takes Neal’s advice and fires his accountant (case of shooting the messenger) and closes up his business and moves on to a simpler life where he makes less employs no one, zero growth of others status in life and is happy now with less and not swimming up stream.

The system has won they stopped him from becoming the 1% because we want everyone the same.

All I know is I never got a job from a poor person.

 

[Chris]

Fire your accountant.

My accountant did everything legal and even a few questionable things. Only other way to get my taxes lower are to flat out lie, that is what most of these accountants do that make it to where you don't pay. My problem was that I followed the rules and got screwed. I talked to a few other accountant because I get upset with mine but its not her fault she just won't lie to save me money and I agree, I don't need the audit where they will find out. Right now I could be audited for every year and win every single one. I would rather the rules be changed to to help someone trying to build a company instead of using every turn for them to charge more. Like Bud said, they won this battle, they took jobs away from six people including myself. They made it not worth it to keep fighting the fight. I had a very successful 9 years and every year that came more success came more charges for success to keep where I was the year before. It's funny I was up to 12 employees and doing a few million a year in sales and I took home less money than I did my first year in business when I was running the tractor with a helper.

They want equality, they got it. They just made a hard worker into the poor class just like everyone else. Its not about bringing up the lower class it's about bringing down the middle class to the lower class for equality.

 

[zannej]

I will say that I don't think regular federal employees that are below Congress level and are affected by the salary cap (Particularly law enforcement agents) should lose their health benefits. The health benefits are part of the compensation to make up for lack of true overtime pay. The health and retirement benefits are the only things that sort of level the playing field when it comes to what they would make in private sector. Also, their healthcare is not free and it does not cover everything. They still pay quite a bit out of pocket for their plans. Also, feds working in covered positions are forced to retire at I think 57 now. So they can't continue working for longer and keep collecting $.

Morale for federal LEOs already dropped quite a bit after certain policies went into effect, but taking away the health benefits might be a total dealbreaker.
For the LEOs, they have to put in 50 hour work weeks every single week each month to qualify for LEAP (which is what passes for their "overtime"). They don't get time and a half or anything-- it's 25% of their base salary + locality pay in addition to their regular salary. And if they don't make it for 50 hours every week they don't get the bonus. Also, if they are in the higher ranks-- I think GS14 Step6 and up, they don't even get LEAP because of the salary cap.

I do think it is unfair that people like Chris get hit hard by the current plan. That just isn't right. (Editing what I said before because I realize it seemed like I was implying that Chris isn't middle class-- and I consider him to be middle class). It isn't fair for *anyone* to suffer. And I don't like a system that punishes honest and hardworking people like Chris while giving breaks to dishonest people in much higher income brackets as well as encouraging people in lower income brackets to lie. Whenever people have to lie to benefit from the system (or not get screwed by it) it is not a good system.

However, I've already stated that they really need to regulate the whole medical system better to get prices down so medical care will be more affordable. Unless they do that, people will continue to get screwed.

Also, if anyone is interested in the link to the petition to take away the medical benefits from Congress, please let me know.