First Post, need opinions

[mtnstyne]

First post here so bare with me if I don't explain the situation to standard.

I am wanting to have a load-bearing wall removed between my kitchen and living room. I have had 2 contractors look at it and they came up with 2 very different plans and I can't seem to get a third contractor to show up and provide a deciding vote.

The wall is on the main level of a rancher between the attic space and the basement. The basement ceiling (main level floor) joists are supported by a beam and pillars in the basement that run in line with the apex of the roof the length of the house. The wall to be removed is 12' and runs along this same line. The width of the house is 28' and the space to be opened is 17' long. 8' ceilings. Picture is obviously not to scale.

The attic is just rafters and joists all of which are 2x6s. Every 8' in the attic are some vertical supports (2x6s also) and this is in Tennessee so it doesn't have the threat of heavy snows.



CONTRACTOR 1: install a concealed laminated beam in the attic and use steal joist hangars, pretty straight forward.

CONTRACTOR 2: build "jack" trusses into the existing rafters/joists and this will supposedly push the weight to the exterior walls and not require a beam.

Cost on the 2 estimates is not an issue, I only want to make sure it is done correctly so no issues in the future.

 

[oldognewtrick]

First off to House Repair Talk!

Contact a structural engineer to write a scope of work, then have the contractors bid on that scope of work. Apples/oranges.

 

[nealtw]

Contractor 2 did not allow for the ceiling joists landing on the wall.
Your best bet is to start with an engineer, who will draw up the plan of action and inspect the work when done,
Then all the contractors will be on the same page.

If contractor one thinks he can make trusses out of what you have to support the ceiling, that too is engineering.

There are two ties in a rafter system that hold things together. rafter ties (ceiling joists) stop the side walls from pushing out under the weight of the roof.
What will be holding those walls in place when contractor two cut all the joists to move the beam in place
The other ties are in the upper 3rd so the rafter can push against each other so they don't sag. You don't have those and maybe you don't need them but that is a question for an engineer..

Sizing a beam is also a job for an engineer once he has figured out the size of the beam as for the weight it will carry he will also dictate what needs to be put into the wall at each end to carry the weight all the way to the foundation, and then he might look at the foundation and the footing where those posts land.

 

[bud16415]

What makes you think the wall to be removed is load bearing? The ceiling joist is mostly under tension except for the weight of the drywall or plaster, as Neal pointed out. The 2x6 posts 8’ spacing are not transferring much if any weight IMO. (By the way IMO doesn’t mean a lot as I’m not a structural engineer.) My thought those were put in to hold the ridge board straight during the setting of the rafters. The support posts in the basement are to support the floor joists and all the contents of the home. Your roof wouldn’t work well up north as the snow loads with the slight pitch would be the problem. What the engineer will do is use the pitch of your roof and the span and the size and spacing of the members to do the math. He will add in the weight of the roofing and also wind loading for your area. He will want to dig down in that insulation and see how your ceiling joists are joined in the center if they are not one piece and also how they are attached at the outside wall and also how the birds mouth was cut where the rafter sets on the wall.

It is a good idea to get someone in to write a report that is an engineer and won’t be involved directly as the contractor. Unbiased 3rd party.

Let me also say welcome to the forum. Nice first post.

 

[Snoonyb]

There is a likelihood that the ceiling joists are spliced over the wall to be removed, which may not be a concern if the contractor suggesting the trusses looked in the attic and determined that the ceiling joist were full length, or width as it were.

So, there is another alternative in placing a beam, it's called a strong-back in framers terms, and that is to place the beam on top of the ceiling joist, supported on both ends and hanging the ceiling off of the beam.

Another thing to consider in the removal of this center wall, is the amount of shear value you are losing.

At any rate, you need a civil or structural engineer.

You can find some here and you can also refine the search terms;http://www.thebluebook.com/search.h...l=Tennessee-Nashville,+Chattanooga,+Knoxville

 

[Sparky617]

Without knowing the width of the dwelling, there is a likelihood that the ceiling joists are spliced over the wall to be removed, which may not be a concern if the contractor suggesting the trusses looked in the attic and determined that the ceiling joist were full length, or width as it were.

So, there is another alternative in placing a beam, it's called a strong-back in framers terms, and that is to place the beam on top of the ceiling joist, supported on both ends and hanging the ceiling off of the beam.

Another thing to consider in the removal of this center wall, is the amount of shear value you are losing.

At any rate, you need a civil or structural engineer.

He said the house is 28' wide in the initial post.

 

[Snoonyb]

Thanks, I skipped to the picture, so noted and edited.

 

[bud16415]

So are you guys saying that one 2x6 shown in the attic is carrying the full weight of the roof at the ridge board and down thru this “load bearing wall”?

 

[nealtw]

So are you guys saying that one 2x6 shown in the attic is carrying the full weight of the roof at the ridge board and down thru this “load bearing wall”?

No, it is the ceiling that is the big load.

 

[Mastercarpenty]

Use the beam. Anyone who thinks they are qualified to do truss design but hasn't been trained and licensed in that engineering specialty is not somebody who I'd let hang a picture on my wall :nono:

Having confidence in your abilities is good, but knowing your limitations overrides that completely. I've done a lot of beams this way and often it is easier and cheaper than even an exposed beam inside the room because of access. Most of the time I can open the gable siding and slip the beam in faster and with less mess than trying to get it up an attic stair after maneuvering it through the house.

One thing I do recommend here is to not simply fill in the missing sheetrock where the wall once was as that cracks easily with the least movement; instead run a 2' wide or preferably a 4' sheet centered under the beam across it's full width as that eliminates that possible problem and usually isn't that much harder to do.

Phil

 

[Snoonyb]

So are you guys saying that one 2x6 shown in the attic is carrying the full weight of the roof at the ridge board and down thru this “load bearing wall”?

Between the photos the note says every 8'.

 

[bud16415]

No, it is the ceiling that is the big load.

So no one is concerned with the walls spreading and the peak dropping if the wall was removed the fear would be the walls coming in and the peak going up as the ceiling hinged around the splice point of the ceiling joists and dropped under the weight of the ceilings.

So the king posts are not then to hold the ridge up in compression but they are to keep the ceiling from folding down and are in tension, along with the little ones on each side holding part of the span of ceiling.

Could you guys ever see an engineer suggesting adding in all the rest of the king posts as a fix. Or do they generally not suggest any type tension joints because of unknown attachment methods. It does seem they would go with the sure thing and deal with just compression loading and a beam.

 

[nealtw]

So no one is concerned with the walls spreading and the peak dropping if the wall was removed the fear would be the walls coming in and the peak going up as the ceiling hinged around the splice point of the ceiling joists and dropped under the weight of the ceilings.

So the king posts are not then to hold the ridge up in compression but they are to keep the ceiling from folding down and are in tension, along with the little ones on each side holding part of the span of ceiling.

Could you guys ever see an engineer suggesting adding in all the rest of the king posts as a fix. Or do they generally not suggest any type tension joints because of unknown attachment methods. It does seem they would go with the sure thing and deal with just compression loading and a beam.

The beam replaces the wall and the joists are attached to it to stop the spread and we assume with anything to do with the roof everything is structure unless told differently by an engineer.

All your questions are good and that is why we all say, get an engineer.

 

[mtnstyne]

Thanks for all the input. I will try to provide updates as I go.

Trying to get in touch with a structural engineer, I expect I may die of old age before I get any results on this step but giving it the college try. Contractors are tough as it is, had 2 no shows already and a couple that just can't get in touch with at all via phone or e-mail.

A couple notes that may or may not add to the situation. I see at least one individual concerned that the process of cutting the joist to install a beam would cause the outer walls to spread out as the roof weight pushes down. The outer walls are brick so I don't know if that has any bearing or not.

Second, the joists are joined in the center with approx (I didn't measure while in the hot attic) 18" of overlap. for 12' of the 17' length. The other 5' has a 2'x10' that the joists butt into to form a small beam. This is the area in the house where the wall ends and is already the opening between the kitchen and living room.

Third, the beam plan is to do as mentioned by someone to bring it in through the end of the house gable.

Again, thanks for all the replies. Great site here.

 

[nealtw]

I would be just as concerned about brick walls, the engineer should tell you what temp ties will be needed when the joists are cut.
You could also ask him about leaving the beam above the joists. Some engineers like that plan, other will tell you how stupid it is.

 

[Snoonyb]

"So no one is concerned with the walls spreading and the peak dropping if the wall was removed."

That would be a greater concern if he elects to support the ceiling, cut the joists and install the beam as a flush header, I would than install collar ties just above the top of the beam and not solely depend upon the joist hangers to limit the spreading, and the ridge posts are shortened and renailed.

"So the king posts are not then to hold the ridge up."

However if the method is a strong-back, then just one side of the joist need to be supported until the beam is levered into place and the ridge posts are shortened and renailed.

"Third, the beam plan is to do as mentioned by someone to bring it in through the end of the house gable."

The down side to this will be if the gable end is also bricked, because of the repair aesthetics.

Your best bet is to first consult an engineer, develop a plan, and then obtain your estimates. That way everyone is dealing with the same realities.

 

[Mastercarpenty]

Almost all of the ones I do have the ceiling joists lapped already, thus whatever 'spread' prevention you need is presumably already there (though I check and rectify nailing if it looks like it needs that.The beam is simply doing the job which the wall once did, giving vertical support to the inner end of the joists. Doesn't matter if the beam is above or below as long as nothing comes apart and the beam holds. When the joists are not adequately lapped or are butted together then you've got some more work to do but remember the house didn't 'spread' like that so it can't be too far wrong even if it can be done better. And the kingposts are also preventing 'spread'- if the ridge can't drop then the roof can't spread unless something comes apart.

Until you get to the point of removing support without replacing it everything is simple geometry, load carrying ability, and common sense. Beyond there is truss design and that is where it gets complicated fast. With a beam you're changing nothing about the structure save for how the inner ends of the ceiling joists are supported and a proper beam can do that as well as a wall does.

Phil

 

[nealtw]

Almost all of the ones I do have the ceiling joists lapped already, thus whatever 'spread' prevention you need is presumably already there (though I check and rectify nailing if it looks like it needs that.The beam is simply doing the job which the wall once did, giving vertical support to the inner end of the joists. Doesn't matter if the beam is above or below as long as nothing comes apart and the beam holds. When the joists are not adequately lapped or are butted together then you've got some more work to do but remember the house didn't 'spread' like that so it can't be too far wrong even if it can be done better. And the kingposts are also preventing 'spread'- if the ridge can't drop then the roof can't spread unless something comes apart.

Until you get to the point of removing support without replacing it everything is simple geometry, load carrying ability, and common sense. Beyond there is truss design and that is where it gets complicated fast. With a beam you're changing nothing about the structure save for how the inner ends of the ceiling joists are supported and a proper beam can do that as well as a wall does.

Phil

I understood the hopeful plan was a flush beam and that brought the discussion about wall spread.

 

[Snoonyb]

I understood the hopeful plan was a flush beam and that brought the discussion about wall spread.

See post #14, note #3.

 

[Mastercarpenty]

I understood the hopeful plan was a flush beam and that brought the discussion about wall spread.

Unless you need a flat floor space in the attic, a flush beam is more work with more possible problems and gains nothing here. I generally choose based on what it will take to get the beam inside the house. Stubbornly sticking to one method or the other can turn a relatively easy job into a self-made nightmare and I try to avoid those

Wall spread can happen. I painted a house for a landlord about 5 years ago and noted that the front wall was out by about 3/4", leaving only 2-3/4" for the joists to sit on the wall. Last year I was asked to repair the same area and saw it had moved about 3/4" more. Now only 2" is bearing and likely that old wood has compressed into a slope tending to wedge the wall out further faster. No matter how I tried to explain how dangerous this was he wouldn't hear of fixing it. I told him I would not step foot into that house again unless it was being fixed. I drive by there often and I know that someday I'll see a pile of rubble where a repairable house once stood- what a waste. I just hope it's vacant when that happens.

Phil