Question Regarding Ground Wire for Light Fixture

Sup guys,

I am replacing the light fixture in my bathroom which looks like it hasn't been changed in many years. The new light fixture has a socket where as the old one doesn't. I have the following two questions;

1. The new fixture has a ground wire. However, the junction box doesn't appear to have a ground wire. Where do I connect the ground wire for the new light fixture?

2. Being that the old light fixture didn't have a socket attached, how do I connect the socket wires for the new light fixture?

I have attached a few pictures as reference. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

The ground wire could be behind the plate in picture #1 - possibly connected to the plate by the screw pictured (also in pix #1 in the upper left). I will let the pros guide you if there is no ground present.
Is picture #2 the wires leading from the fixture dangling from picture #1?

You may not have grounded wire but if you do it will be attached to the box so you can attach you green wire to any part of the box.

This has come up before.
You can get a 'working ground' by snaking a single uninsulated #12 or #14 wire in corners, under baseboards, etc., until you get to the load center ground by a more or less direct route. It should be protected against physical damage, maybe by using nailing plates.

But. . .does the NEC expressly prohibit this? Or is the Code silent on this particular grounding method, intentionally or by oversight? A lot of money for a lot of homeowners is riding on this answer.

If this wire is prohibited I guess a GFCI is another option.

If you flex those old wires, have some heat shrink tubing on hand.

Because it’s a bathroom I would be a little more worried about how it’s set up. It also looks like it’s a light with an outlet built in and I’m guessing its going over the sink.

Tell us a little more about the bathroom and the outlets. Are they GFCI outlets? Do you know if the light is being fed from and outlet?

You could just hook the black and white wires to the two wires coming out of the wall and it would work but wouldn’t be the correct way or the code way or the right way to do it. Running a ground all the way back to the box isn’t the way to do it IMO.

As to the hardware you will need to attach it you need a strap to go across the box and one that has the threaded tube in the center to attach the fixture.

Safety first though.

I am going to assume (and you know what they say about assuming) that there are no GCFI's in this bathroom from the age of the original wiring. I am also going to assume there is no bare ground available either. Therefore, you have no place to attach your ground wire that will give you a ground.
It is difficult to tell from your pictures, but if your original fixture has a wall switch and you connect your new light with all the blacks tied to the black wire in the wall and all your white wires to the white wire in the wall (note the white showing through the dark cover) then everything including the plugin will work only when the switch is on. If you want the plugin to work all the time you will have to do some additional testing to determine if it is possible to have the plugin function like that.
As Bud pointed out because it is a bathroom and (again I am going to assume) this light is above the sink and has a plugin, there needs to be added protection to eliminate the possibility of electric shock. I am going to include a quote and an opinion that I found concerning running a separate ground wire. I do not have access to an NEC code book but this looks right. Take it for what it is worth.

"Now, what I am considering doing is running a separate green insulated solid 12AWG copper ground wire through the crawl space (routed and stapled as per code) for each branch circuit with wall receptacles and daisy chaining the ground wire between the receptacle outlets on that branch circuit.

From what I am reading in the NFPA-NEC, this would be acceptable and not forbidden. Here's why I believe this to be true:

I am performing a partial rewire of the house thereby ensuring each wall receptacle outlet has a ground wire. NEC 406.(D).(2) reads "Non–Grounding-Type Receptacles. Where attachment to an equipment grounding conductor does not exist in the receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with (D)(2)(a), (D)(2)(b), or (D)(2)(c)." which discusses the (a) re-installation of a two prong receptacle(s), (b) installation of a properly labeled/marked GFCI receptacle, (c) or you can install three-prong receptacle(s) downstream of the GFCI as long as there's no equipment ground connected between them and properly marked.

I believe that adding a ground wire to a branch circuit and daisy-chaining between the receptacle outlets is acceptable and makes 406.(D) above not applicable because an equipment grounding conductor will then exist in the receptacle enclosure. If I am wrong, please show me where in the code it prohibits this."

The permission to run a separate ground wire and the ability to get it where it needs to be can be two entirely separate issues. Also, as Bud was suggesting IF your light is fed from a receptacle and you could replace that receptacle with a GCFI and wire it correctly, you eliminate the safety issue and as noted above that is allowed by code. Obviously many options and details here. Hope I did not overload or confuse the issue.

Is that a jbox in picture #1 or the backplate from the old fixture? It looks kind of large......
If it's the backplate, you will have to remove that too.

Edit: Now that I'm looking closer, it seems to be a jbox behind the backplate. By removing the backplate, you will get a better look at what is in the box.

Lots of ways to go but until you see the big picture with this stuff I always think it confuses things to the OP trying to give every option.

Say the light is switched from a wall switch in a double box that also has the ceiling fan and power comes into that box. You could replace one switch with GFCI outlet. And then replace other switch with a double switch both getting power from the GFIC. Sometimes you get lucky and never have to pull a wire. But you just never know till you see the big picture.

Most times trouble shooting requires a lot of questions before an answer.

I never like the shotgun approach.


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Sorry was not trying to confuse the issue. Guess I was trying to address Wuzzat's question as well.

Yeah, make it green so they know it's a ground. And document the path of that wire so the people who come later know where to look.

Fireguy5674 said:

Sorry was not trying to confuse the issue. Guess I was trying to address Wuzzat's question as well.

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I didn’t mean to say anyone in particular was trying to confuse the OP. Most coming here asking questions are not too well versed in what they are trying to accomplish to start with and asking them to string a wire back to the load center in corners and under baseboards is more likely to send them off to the neighbor for help and get the thing rigged up with no ground and no GFCI.

They did a nice job of showing what they have now and as far as code goes we could assume the whole house has this turn of the century cloth covered wire without a ground. I just feel in most cases expanding what is known fully before offering a solution is best. The conversation could have easily grown into what they should be doing in other rooms as well to make their home safer etc.

Not knowing the OP’s background always makes me cautious.

As to your answer addressing Wuzz’s question I enjoyed reading it and found it informative.

I've seen situations where the ground wire is bent back and held under the cable clamp right at the entrance to the jbox. Would it be over optimistic to hope that it is there? And sort of importantly...has anyone heard from the OP?

When working in a buddy's house he was having issues with a light fixture that was going bad. When we opened up the box we were surprised to find a very new looking ground wire in a box that looked straight out of the 50's. When we pulled the ground wire to connect it to the new fixture, I noticed it was very easy to pull. We found that the previous owner had stuck a wire to look like the ground and ran it 6 or 7 inches into the wall with no connection to anything. Pretty funny stuff! See, it could always be worse

Not sure if the OP will return but this thread is a good one as I’m sure many people have a similar problems in older homes. The outlet in the light is something a lot of people rely on and don’t mind having to have the light on to use it. It should however be GFCI protected over a sink and in a bathroom.

I suggested yesterday if the old light was controlled by a switch and power originated at the switch and the box was a double with say a ceiling fan in the second position how a GFCI outlet and a double switch could solve the problem.

You can also get a GFCI switch and outlet combo if you only have one position. This does require a common in the box though as would be the case with power originating at the switch and not at the light.

Couple links:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-...tlet-and-Switch-White-R02-X7299-00W/204364508

http://communities.leviton.com/thread/3910

I agree with Bud here, more information can get to the OP by asking question than be going off in many dirrections.
He didn't ask about fixing the whole house< he just wanted to hook up a light . And that job is likely finished.

08/18/14: 38k & 650 hours it's starting to come together or maybe I'm coming apart

The months vs. $ is leveling off at $40K but the months vs. hours is still a straight line ramp up, no asymptote visible.
Seems like it's all turning to your labor and no new materials and no paying others for labor.

First off I think it's ridiculous a bathroom lighting fixture has an outlet on it, just saying.

Most likely that bathroom is all on the same circuit, from the looks of the wire. If it is GFCI protected (being fed from a GFI outlet or breaker) then you can simply remove and replace the light.

If not then I would either GFCI protect the circuit or I would simply disconnect the outlet from the fixture.

Kabris said:

First off I think it's ridiculous a bathroom lighting fixture has an outlet on it, just saying.

Most likely that bathroom is all on the same circuit, from the looks of the wire. If it is GFCI protected (being fed from a GFI outlet or breaker) then you can simply remove and replace the light.

If not then I would either GFCI protect the circuit or I would simply disconnect the outlet from the fixture.

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