nealtw
Contractor retired
By weight it is just about 10% more copper and or covering between 12/3 and 14/3
to "derate" or not
- Thread starter analogmusicman
- Start date
Help Support House Repair Talk:
By weight it is just about 10% more copper and or covering between 12/3 and 14/3
That was kind of my point as a home owner if I want #12 and I can see the price of the job might go up $400 in materials wire, deeper boxes, 20 amp outlets etc. and maybe its overkill or for bragging rights or even if I think it might save me money over the course of the next 50 years, or maybe I will someday want to plug something in with a big current draw. Maybe I only want to do it because someone else buying the house might see it as a selling point just as I saw it. really no different than when I saw the 200 amp service and panel I thought wow as I was expecting to see an old 60amp fuse setup in an old house. If all this together came to $1000 bucks on a new 200k home its a small percentage of the cost why not ask for it? I would much rather have a 200amp service and #12 wire than some counter tops made out of an exotic stone and I see people drop 5k on that all the time.
I dont see the point in a 3X upcharge on top of rounding the material up by another 30% to start. That would be exactly the same in my mind as the normal Formica counter costing $400 and the costumer asks for marble costing $4000 so I charge him $12,000 for the material rather than adjust the labor to install it. I have ran a lot of #12 wire and also #14 I never saw any difference string it thru the studs and stapling it. when it comes to striping it and putting a wire nut on its about the same amount of work attaching it to an outlet or switch might take a minute longer and jamming the wires back in the box is a little extra time but after you do a couple you learn how to start the bends to fold back easy. I dont know the number but doing a whole house might add a couple hours between the two wire sizes. I cant see overcharging $1000 for doing it on top of the actual cost.
I dont see the point in a 3X upcharge on top of rounding the material up by another 30% to start. That would be exactly the same in my mind as the normal Formica counter costing $400 and the costumer asks for marble costing $4000 so I charge him $12,000 for the material rather than adjust the labor to install it. I have ran a lot of #12 wire and also #14 I never saw any difference string it thru the studs and stapling it. when it comes to striping it and putting a wire nut on its about the same amount of work attaching it to an outlet or switch might take a minute longer and jamming the wires back in the box is a little extra time but after you do a couple you learn how to start the bends to fold back easy. I dont know the number but doing a whole house might add a couple hours between the two wire sizes. I cant see overcharging $1000 for doing it on top of the actual cost.
Ok. What does your vehicle ins. cost you per day? What do you value your time at, per hour? What is your fuel cost per mile?
Yes you can say "well thats just normal costs of operation," the problem is, it's mine, not yours and the value of those are in the price, and, are not free.
So, when you consider all those pesky costs of operation, what is the real value of your "bragging rights"?
Formica, until you start looking at the hi end commercial grades, has no comparison to hard surface products, either natural or composite and by "adjusting" the labor do you mean by the cost of the two or three extra employees the employer has to provide for?
There in lies the difference in the per circuit charge for a 15A,(14/2) and a 20A,(12/2).
Bidding is competitive, and that "overcharging", pays for the time spent composing the bid, presenting it in a professional manner, someone to answer the phone, an accountant, a tax preparer, all those pesky "costs of operation", that you do not have, as a DIY.
I don’t have any problem with operating costs and passing them along nor do I have any problem charging for extra employees etc. I am very aware of ACO costs and expect them.
The simple example I like to use when I go to my corner mechanic to get my car fixed. I know he has ACO costs and I expect to pay them and the only real way he has to pay them fairly is by taking his labor costs and applying a multiplier to reflect the overhead of his business. But many of them do the same thing and it makes for an accounting nightmare and a costumer that that feels they are being ripped. I go to get a muffler on my car. I can go to autozone and get it for $30 bucks he gets it for $20 and marks it up to $60 so he can tell me his labor rate is only $50/hour. He then pays the kid doing the job $15/hour and claims the rest as overhead and profit. The end customer really only cares about the bottom line and padding the cost of materials and then itemizing them only causes a curious consumer to dig deeper and quite frankly with the internet it’s not hard to figure out how much wire costs.
If done transparently it is easy to figure out who runs a lean operation and if their quality is good that’s who you want. The quote comparison tells you that.
Around here there are a lot of Amish doing construction and they do nice work but do it in a much different way that appeals to a lot of people. They like you to provide materials and at least receive and pay for the materials. Then they only charge you for the labor and charge as if they don’t have any overhead and for the most part they don’t. They run really lean and work amazingly fast. They don’t even have power tools as they are not allowed to own them but are ok to use them and have tools on loan or borrow yours. The final cost comes out less than half and everyone is using them they are getting richer and richer as they don’t spend much and all the local builders hate them complaining they can’t compete.
I believe in capitalism and free markets and you can run your operation any way you like but understanding your real ACO costs is the only way you can really know how to compete and run a lean operation.
The simple example I like to use when I go to my corner mechanic to get my car fixed. I know he has ACO costs and I expect to pay them and the only real way he has to pay them fairly is by taking his labor costs and applying a multiplier to reflect the overhead of his business. But many of them do the same thing and it makes for an accounting nightmare and a costumer that that feels they are being ripped. I go to get a muffler on my car. I can go to autozone and get it for $30 bucks he gets it for $20 and marks it up to $60 so he can tell me his labor rate is only $50/hour. He then pays the kid doing the job $15/hour and claims the rest as overhead and profit. The end customer really only cares about the bottom line and padding the cost of materials and then itemizing them only causes a curious consumer to dig deeper and quite frankly with the internet it’s not hard to figure out how much wire costs.
If done transparently it is easy to figure out who runs a lean operation and if their quality is good that’s who you want. The quote comparison tells you that.
Around here there are a lot of Amish doing construction and they do nice work but do it in a much different way that appeals to a lot of people. They like you to provide materials and at least receive and pay for the materials. Then they only charge you for the labor and charge as if they don’t have any overhead and for the most part they don’t. They run really lean and work amazingly fast. They don’t even have power tools as they are not allowed to own them but are ok to use them and have tools on loan or borrow yours. The final cost comes out less than half and everyone is using them they are getting richer and richer as they don’t spend much and all the local builders hate them complaining they can’t compete.
I believe in capitalism and free markets and you can run your operation any way you like but understanding your real ACO costs is the only way you can really know how to compete and run a lean operation.
slownsteady
Well-Known Member
Interesting conversation, but maybe it should be a new thread. We have strayed far from the orig. question.
Seeing as how the OP has only one post and hasnt been back in 4 days the thread took on a life of its own. If the OP comes back I think he will have his info on the front page before things took a turn.
