Removing wall

Guys,

Looking to remove a wall between the kitchen and dinning room. The distance is 17 feet. I want to hide the beam above the ceiling (in attic). The current wall runs parallel with the ceiling joist. On top of the wall, there is a 2x6 laying flat on the header. Then there are three angle struts (2x4) about 4ft apart sitting on the 2x6 and one vertical strut at the location of the bearing wall (where two walls meet, reference "X", near peak of valley).


Plans:



1) Temporary support the 4 struts by laying 2x6 across the joists and run new struts near by.


2) Place a 18 ft LVL (3 1/2 x 11 7/8) on top on the headers on the end of load bearing walls, add some blocks around it and in between other joists


3) Add a few jack studs on the walls on both sides


4) Add 3 angle struts at original location but use hanging joist brackets on side of the beam (so it would meet a 45 degree min). For the vertical strut, it will sit on the new beam at original location (top of the bearing wall).

5) Remove temporary struts support and wall below.


6) Drywall



I talked to my contractor and he said a 4x12 should be fine, but I am going to do this job if I decide to proceed. Any feedback?


Thanks,
PCNerd

My non engineer thoughts.
You can just remove the wall.
The green struts are to hold the wall. Remove the wall and now the struts are not needed.
The 2x6 top plate is just a stiffener. Again remove the wall and now the stiffener is not needed.

JoeD said:

My non engineer thoughts.
You can just remove the wall.
The green struts are to hold the wall. Remove the wall and now the struts are not needed.
The 2x6 top plate is just a stiffener. Again remove the wall and now the stiffener is not needed.

Click to expand...

Come to think of it, I think you are right. I haven't measure the total width from the exterior walls of the kitchen & the dining room but it is for sure less than 20 ft, so the valley (rafter) aren't that long. I probably just need a joist (2x8 like the other joists) at the location of the wall.

The 2x6 above the wall is just backing to nail the drywall up ( ceiling)
I think Joe is right but I would like to see some pictures of the attic and maybe outside. The word valley in the discription makes me wonder.

Nealtw,

The dinning room is on the right side of the roof (see pic). The "X" reference is where the vertical strut is currently sitting on top of the 2x6 and the load bearing wall. The whole wall is from the "X" to the common wall of the garage. I will get pics this weekend once I go back up the attic.

Engineered trusses or hand framed rafters and ceiling joists?

nealtw said:

Engineered trusses or hand framed rafters and ceiling joists?

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Hand framed from going up there a few times. Looks like individual lumber nailed.

Trusses are usually obious. We would expect the trusses to run right thru and a valley set sitting on top to line up with the garage roof.
Hand framing could be done the same way but you never know. So let's wait for the photos.

Finally have some time to post (was sick for a few days).

I updated the picture with the roof layout (the struts angling the towards the right instead of the left).

For Ref 1, the small 2x6 piece sits under the ridge (near the end of the ridge, about 2 feet away before intersecting another ridge. The strut barely angles down to the wall I want to remove (sits on the wall, about 2 ft away from the load bearing wall).

For Ref 2, there are 3 angle struts. Each nailed to the side against the rafter. Then a small 2x4 block nailed on the smaller end sitting under the ridge.

My plan is to place 2 x 1 3/4 x 11 7/8 LVL on the left side of the wall to be removed. Then nailed the 3 angle struts and one slight angle strut to the new beam. Then remove the wall. Add a 2x8 joist on the right side so it won't be too far away from the other joist (it will be about 22" away if I don't add a joist).

My brother suggests that I temporary support with struts. Then remove wall/old struts and place new beam/struts on same location.

I think my plan would allow us more time to work. As long as I am able to have a minimum of 45 degree support for the new struts, I am leaning towards my plan.

I would like to leave about 2 ft of wall on the end, right side (not tearing everything down) so a pantry will sit next to it. With my brother's plan, he said the wall will also help support the new beam, reducing the overall distance to 15 feet).

The strut marked ref 2 looks more like a construction aid. It looks to me that he held the one rafter up and braced it into place with the stut and then nailed up another peice to set the ridge board on.
refc1 looks like it is holding up the end of the rafter and there may be a fix for that (more pics needed) but a block between the other rafters may carry that load.
Right now I am thinking, no beam needed. Let's see what others think.

Ref 3, the 2x4 is not even nailed in at the top. Only the 2x4 piece sitting on top of the 3 joists across is nailed (barely). This piece was probably a temporary piece to hold up the ridge during the build.

On the main part of the house where the roof has a wider span, I noticed a purlin runs across under the rafters then a strut is supported about every 4 ft.

Btw, house built in 1962 on slab foundation.

Just so you understyand I am not any kind of expert on roof structure. I work mostly with trusses, and that easy you just do what some engineer tells you to do.

But from what I see, the ceiling joists are running the wrong way, they usually run the same direction as the rafters and they hold the two outside walls from spreading out. When they run the joists the wrong way they do support the ridge and that stops the pressure on the outside wall.
So if I am right about that direction thing, you coud run 2x4s across sitting on the ceiling joist and nailed to the rafters on each side And a shorter 2x4 from rafter to rafter right under the ridge to stiffen everything up and there would be no need for the struts,, I think!

nealtw said:

Just so you understyand I am not any kind of expert on roof structure. I work mostly with trusses, and that easy you just do what some engineer tells you to do.

But from what I see, the ceiling joists are running the wrong way, they usually run the same direction as the rafters and they hold the two outside walls from spreading out. When they run the joists the wrong way they do support the ridge and that stops the pressure on the outside wall.
So if I am right about that direction thing, you coud run 2x4s across sitting on the ceiling joist and nailed to the rafters on each side And a shorter 2x4 from rafter to rafter right under the ridge to stiffen everything up and there would be no need for the struts,, I think!

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Yea. I know what you are talking about. The 2x4 collar ties. Some areas of the attic has it.

I saw an addition that had the joists running the same way as the rafters. Then they run a 2x8 in the middle of the addition sitting on the joists running parallel with the ridge. Then they have supporting 2x4 to the ridge.

This pic shows the garage wall share with the kitchen/dinning room. Two pieces of wood from the wall going up to support the ridge.

The 2x10 that the struts are supporting just ends in the middle of the attic???? What is the other end connected to?
It also looks like "strut 1 (ref 1)" is directly under a sistered connection. Could be there for a good reason.

If the ridge needed to be supported I would expect a post straight down on that wall and the angle braces hold everything square and plumb, but I am guessig.

t

slownsteady said:

The 2x10 that the struts are supporting just ends in the middle of the attic???? What is the other end connected to?
It also looks like "strut 1 (ref 1)" is directly under a sistered connection. Could be there for a good reason.

Click to expand...

The pic of the roof explains it. The support on REF 1 is about where "+" on the roof pic. The location is about 2-3 ft away from the other ridge that is the main part of the house. Yes it ends there and sits lower than the main ridge.

The ridge goes through the wall and into the garage for the other end.

I had to go look up what a purlin was.. and I'm going to have to familiarize myself with the terminology more.

I think in your case I would wait for an assessment from an engineer just to be on the safe side. When it comes to structure, that is something you don't want to mess up.

zannej said:

I had to go look up what a purlin was.. and I'm going to have to familiarize myself with the terminology more.

I think in your case I would wait for an assessment from an engineer just to be on the safe side. When it comes to structure, that is something you don't want to mess up.

Click to expand...

Good thinking but the beam he is thinking about is cheaper than the engineer.

nealtw said:

Good thinking but the beam he is thinking about is cheaper than the engineer.

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That is true, but wouldn't he need some sort of assessment from an engineer in order to get the permit?

If he went for a permit, they would ask for an engineers report. I was looking for a way around it but there should be someone that realy knows this stuff looking at it.