How do we fix our healthcare system in America?

slownsteady said:

I guess that CA is different...as I have been told :hide:! I don't disagree that some things still have to change, and I feel your pain (and many others) on this topic. But I think it is still way above all that was happening before.
here's another thought: one of the big problems has always been that when you leave a company, you lose your health coverage...just another form of captive servitude. Instead of allowing tax breaks for corporations who provide health insurance, remove those incentives and let the insurance companies have to compete on the retail level.

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Competition is always good.

You forget you don't loose your healthcare when leaving a company at least not here, you have the option to have Cobra insurance. It might cost you five times what it is worth but you do have the option to keep your insurance.:down:

I have wanted to give my employees healthcare for several years now but it is just not affordable. My last quote which was last year it would cost my company about 8k a month for the policy and then each individual would be the same as if they got their own insurance. Didn't make sense.

One thing I like about what our president is doing is the removal of two old regulations for every new one proposed, that forces the government o at least look at things. Many times what was good ten years ago is not good now.

People are selfish now and the country believes they should be looked after by the government. In the history of this country people looked after people. Family, friends and churches took care of their own and industry stepped in and offered health insurance not to make you a slave of the company but to make you want to work there. It was competition to have the best work for you and to keep the best you offered the best. What is wrong with that? There have always been people that didn’t chose to work and it is a free country. Life isn’t at all fair some people get sick some get run over by a bus and some are naturally healthy and lucky. Some people are self destructive and smoke, drink, do drugs, eat poorly, are careless and don’t stay fit. Others do positive things and stay healthier. There is nowhere it says you always will be bailed out.

It might sound cruel to have a system like this but without it you are hurting even more people by not making them try. When you make someone try the ones that truly need help will come to the surface and individuals will help not the collective.

I guess where I live the economy is so different. Most of the people I know who are on public assistance are ones who need it. A good majority of them work but don't get paid much because the job market here sucks and there aren't really many high paying jobs available. If anything, the assistance available to people in my area is not sufficient-- but that is because we don't have the same types of programs that are available in California.

What we have though, is a system that penalizes people for working and rewards people for being lazy.

Over in NM, my sister has a friend who's mother totally abuses the system. She gets paid to take care of her disabled adult daughter, she doesn't declare income from rent she charges for people to keep their trailers on her property, and my sister's friend gets paid to be listed as a caretaker for her sister but she pays the entire amount she gets as rent to her mother (even though that disaster of a house would never pass safety standards to be rentable).

Over in another state (I can't remember which one) I have a friend who had to quit working to take care of her disabled sister fulltime. Her sister needs constant care and can't be left alone for any length of time and didn't have any type of insurance to pay to be put in a facility so my friend is stuck. She ended up getting on some programs to help her and to get some part-time care so she can go to the grocery store, and I think she basically gets paid by the government to take care of her sister-- so being the caretaker is essentially her job.

Louisiana doesn't pay people to take care of their family members-- so my mother provides for me financially in exchange for me taking care of her. I'm lucky that my mother can afford to do that. I know many other people who can't afford it. People die here from lack of medical care because they can't afford it.

I admit, I get very annoyed at the people who abuse the system and who live very well while some people I know go hungry or have their utilities shut off because they don't make enough from working to keep up. Some of them do make just enough, but can't afford any setbacks-- so when something breaks and they need to get it fixed or they have medical issues, it screws things up.

Bud, I wish communities still looked after people-- but when most of the community is not doing well themselves or when you have issues with family members on drugs, it can be hard for people to get help. I keep mentioning a friend of mine who works his *** off but gets little pay. His mother was an abusive drug addict (I think she's clean now), his father and uncles are drug addicts. The father and uncles steal from the grandparents and there are no reliable family members to help my friend. The local churches don't do much of anything to help. The Catholic church used to donate stuff to the needy and do things to help the community, but a "new" priest came over from India and has since canceled ALL charitable functions of the church. He canceled most of the social events as well- no more BINGO night, which actually helped the church to get money. We don't have any mega-churches around, but I know over in Texas there are a few of them. Huge multi-million dollar structures while there are people struggling to make ends meet.

bud16415 said:

Don’t forget ACA was the first time in the history of this country that the government made you buy something. Your friend didn’t buy it and was fined for not doing so. That amount started out small and would have grown every year if HRC would have been elected and ACA continued. It is like putting a persons head in a vice and saying buy this item and the first year give it one turn the second 2 turns the third 3 turns. Pretty soon you will buy it or quit working and get it for free. So where did that money he paid in a fine go? Not to an insurance company.

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True. I know some people argue that the government makes people buy insurance for cars-- but people can choose to have cars. They can't choose whether or not to be healthy (although they can do things to affect that health). That fee was just idiotic. My friend checked to see how much it would realistically cost for insurance for him and his daughter and it was over 50% of his income (after taxes). But the formula they used to calculate it made it seem like he could afford it.

Also, to Chris: I have a friend who is a nurse in Idaho. If you have any specific questions about healthcare there, I can ask her.

Editing because for some reason it quoted something I didn't click to quote.

If I remember correctly the idea of insurance in the US started in a hospital in Texas in the twenties. You could join for $1 a month and that would entitle you to 21 days in the hospital.

This was written by an unknown to me Doctor about hospital bankruptcies 2011.

He makes note of two changes made by politicians who didn't think it thru and attempted to solve a problem by creating another one . One in 1983 and one in 2003.
I think the lesson has to be that a lot of people have to do a lot of work, to work thru all the details.
Hospitals are only one part of the problem.

http://truecostofhealthcare.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Bankrupt_Hospitals.211200419.pdf

Neal, Can you tell me more about healthcare in Canada? I am curious about it, most people from there seem to thinks it works well. I am curious about a few things, what is covered? Is there long wait times like people say? How much higher are your taxes compared to here in the US? How much does it cost you that you know of? What else can you tell me about it?

Chris said:

Neal, Can you tell me more about healthcare in Canada? I am curious about it, most people from there seem to thinks it works well. I am curious about a few things, what is covered? Is there long wait times like people say? How much higher are your taxes compared to here in the US? How much does it cost you that you know of? What else can you tell me about it?

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If you move a little further north, you can answer those questions yourself :banana:
But seriously folks......there are a lot more variables in a tax bill than just medical insurance.

Chris said:

Neal, Can you tell me more about healthcare in Canada? I am curious about it, most people from there seem to thinks it works well. I am curious about a few things, what is covered? Is there long wait times like people say? How much higher are your taxes compared to here in the US? How much does it cost you that you know of? What else can you tell me about it?

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There are things to complain about, the long wait time for some tests is the big one. But with that too it has to be sorted out, most people see a Dr. 3 or 4 times a year and Dr.s order test that might be thought of as not needed but the attempt is to catch things early. If you are really sick and show up at the hospital and need a MRI they seem to find room in the schedule to fit you in.

Like I said earlier it does not cover drugs so for some people with certain drugs or dentists.
that can be tough. I think for some it might be helped a little. Years ago when I shut down a business and the following year I should no income on my taxes and for the prescriptions, I only paid dispensing fees
the following year.
I think we get so many visits to a chiropractor and physio theripest , there might be a small co pay with those.

Each province runs their own system and both the province and the feds kick some into the system.

I would be surprised if a family of four would ever pay close to $500 a month but I don't know.
A few years ago I was paying $900 a year, when I turned 65 they sent me a check and said he didn't have to pay, then we got a different Gov. and I am back to $900 per year.

Just for a side story, 20 years ago back east they were having problems with cigarettes coming across the border so the fed and the province back there lowered the taxes to take the money out of smuggling. The fed came to BC and asked them to do the same. Our premiere said that would cost more than we put into BC medical. So I guess we can thank the smokers for paying for our medical

Yes, People are selfish....and that can be said of people on either end of the debate.

Too bad AlefromItaly is not here right now. He told me that they have free healthcare for most things in Italy but there are long waits-- but he also said that people can still see other doctors sooner and choose to pay for things out of pocket if they want. Italy also has mandatory 6-months maternity leave after a baby is born (which I was told by an Italian schoolteacher who was having a baby).
I think France also has free medical, but I would have to ask my friend Chantou more about that.
I think that the mostly free medical probably works a bit better in smaller countries with good economies.
But the US is huge and the economy varies rather drastically depending on where you go.
The supreme selfishness of some of the super-wealthy doesn't help. The ones who find loopholes to not pay taxes and worry more about accruing even more money because they can't stand the thought of anyone having more than they do. It makes me appreciate the ones who believe in helping people out and giving back to the community. On the flipside, we have lower income people who think that the government or society owes them something and they bilk the system for all they can get while the people who really need the help are screwed.
Jimmy Carter calling it "entitlement" was a huge mistake.

I do not believe the government owes you health care

nealtw said:

There are things to complain about, the long wait time for some tests is the big one. But with that too it has to be sorted out, most people see a Dr. 3 or 4 times a year and Dr.s order test that might be thought of as not needed but the attempt is to catch things early. If you are really sick and show up at the hospital and need a MRI they seem to find room in the schedule to fit you in.

Like I said earlier it does not cover drugs so for some people with certain drugs or dentists.
that can be tough. I think for some it might be helped a little. Years ago when I shut down a business and the following year I should no income on my taxes and for the prescriptions, I only paid dispensing fees
the following year.
I think we get so many visits to a chiropractor and physio theripest , there might be a small co pay with those.

Each province runs their own system and both the province and the feds kick some into the system.

I would be surprised if a family of four would ever pay close to $500 a month but I don't know.
A few years ago I was paying $900 a year, when I turned 65 they sent me a check and said he didn't have to pay, then we got a different Gov. and I am back to $900 per year.

Just for a side story, 20 years ago back east they were having problems with cigarettes coming across the border so the fed and the province back there lowered the taxes to take the money out of smuggling. The fed came to BC and asked them to do the same. Our premiere said that would cost more than we put into BC medical. So I guess we can thank the smokers for paying for our medical

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Before the ACA a family medical plan was in the 4-500 dollar range here. The only complaints I can personally remember was pre existing conditions but that was only for personal policies, group policies that you would get through your employer did not exclude you because of a pre existing. I went through several specialists and a couple surgeries and never did I have to spend more than a couple hundred bucks on anything. For me and just about everyone I knew the old system worked just fine. I also remember all of my friends who were on welfare or assistance always had healthcare to and for free, I was confused when the ACA was proposed because I didn't know there were people that couldn't get healthcare. I remember a few times going to the hospital with no insurance and the nurses would have me fill out some paperwork and I would be given some sort of government insurance (Don't know if it was state or Fed, I was young) and it was free and covered things that already happened. I think the only people I knew that were not covered where people who declined the coverage from their employer, I had a couple buddies that just didn't want to pay for it. I am sure I didn't see it all but like I said I grew up very poor and all my friends were poor and most were on assistance and I just can't remember any of these problems people talk about. 15 years ago I was happier than a pig in poop with my healthcare, it cost me about 50 bucks a month and everything had a 10 dollar copay, specialist was 30 and er was 150. Super easy and cheap. I miss those days.

frodo said:

I do not believe the government owes you health care

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I agree, The government does not need to be babysitting me, I am an adult and can take care of myself. To me the government is there to build our military and protect us from foreign governments, keep our roads driveable and the normal police, fire and emergency services. We pay them to do that. I think there is a thing of too much involvement.

Chris said:

I agree, The government does not need to be babysitting me, I am an adult and can take care of myself. To me the government is there to build our military and protect us from foreign governments, keep our roads driveable and the normal police, fire and emergency services. We pay them to do that. I think there is a thing of too much involvement.

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agree 100%

work or go hungry, community takes care of community
THIS also helps with crime, the closer a community is, the less BS they will accept from the people in the community
the church is the key to the heart of the community, and the local water hole for those that do not attend church
every one knows everyone and public shame/ridicule/ shunning works wonders
also, take patrol cars away from the cops, make them walk the beat.
they will get to know everyone, instead of ridding by in a car with the AC on

basically, make **** simpler, simple works, complicated does not

That works to an extent, take a place like CA, this place is so large cops can't walk any beat but I do agree they should park and get out and associate more often. When I was growing up they would stop and talk to us now they do just roll by with their windows up, very little community involvement. Same goes for neighborhoods, I try and meet everyone I possibly can and we work together on things and look out for eachother. People think I am odd because I do this. Most people in the big city here would rather not know their neighbor and better yet have something to complain about them. In big cities like here there is so much of one trying to scam the next out of something everyone on the road is cutting each other off and just plain rude. When you do actually get to talk to people most are pleasant but all think the other guy is at fault for whatever problem is in their head. Its just a Rat race to live and die in the big city. I am not anti government by any means but like anything, what works for you in your rural town doesn't always work here in the big city and vise versa. I feel for people like Zanne that live in a very rural and poor area but only to a certain extent, if a person has the motivation they will either find a way to succeed or move. I grew up in a small town with no future unless you could get into a government job when someone died. I dropped out of school to work, by 16 I was working a few jobs at once. I was tired of living off top ramen so I went out and worked my *** off and it has paid off now 25 years later. I never looked back and wasn't scared to take a chance. I believe if I can do it why can't others? I am not educated, I grew up dirt floor poor and only had one thing handed to me and that was a good honest work ethic and a grandfather that drilled it into my head my entire childhood to work hard, be honest, save every penny possible and pay cash for things and don't buy stuff I don't need. I was taught that financing anything other than a home and possibly a car is not a good idea. I learned more skills at a young age because I had to, first I didn't have TV or video games and when things broke we fixed them as a family, grandpa would show up and my brother, myself mom and grandpa would do whatever needed to be done whether it was roof the house or paint or plumbing, I mean everything, there was nothing we hired out or didn't do as a family. You don't see any of that now days, it seems teenagers are just plain dumb and have no interest in doing anything which makes them into lazy adults that have no skills.

Where I live, the cops are corrupt. There are at least two who "allegedly" use meth. The church-going folks act all pious and superior but treat other people like garbage. Shame and public humiliation doesn't seem to work because some people are proud of being criminals or scumbags. I met a guy recently who bragged about how he used to sell meth (and the cops were some of his clients).

Some communities have just devolved to the point where there just isn't the support that should be there.

Now, this is not the government's fault, nor do I think that healthcare should be entirely the government's responsibility-- but I do think that the government should look out for the best interests of the people by making sure people aren't getting screwed over by hospitals, doctors, and insurance companies.

As for health insurance, prior to the ACA, a friend of mine had a husband with MS. It caused him to have severe pain, angry outbursts, brain freeze, and he was unable to function at times. He was able to work for awhile, but his behavior at work was unacceptable (due to the brain lesions causing his outbursts) and his boss only kept him on out of pity-- but even that only lasted so long and when his symptoms got worse, the guy couldn't work anymore. So, my friend was supporting her husband and their daughter on a teacher's salary. She had medical through her work but the insurance companies started refusing to cover things for her husband-- first they said the medicines he needed were only covered for one year (and the meds were several thousand $ per month). The only alternative med that the insurance could help cover had an absurd co-pay over over $1k. Then the insurance companies said the husband had hit his lifetime payout and they refused to cover anything else for him-- yet she still had to pay her portion of the policy that included him as if he was still covered. She almost had to declare bankruptcy. Her husband was denied disability benefits (they said he could still move his arms and therefore he could work-- this was in North Carolina). On the flipside, I know people who claim to be disabled who aren't actually disabled. They could work-- and actually did do a lot of manual labor under the table while collecting disability payments. So, the medical is just not equal all over the country.

Editing to add: Once ACA came in to play, the insurance companies had to pay for stuff for the husband again. So it helped her. But I do know that the premium hikes and other BS hurt a lot of people.

I know that nothing is as black and white as it seems...lots of gray areas, but I like to blame the insurance companies. When they tell you that you can't go to this Dr. or that Dr. When they tell you that you can't take the only medicine that helps. When they won't pay for tests. I lost my brother in law that way. His cardiologist said he needed a stress test, the insurance company said he doesn't. He died of a heart attack just a few weeks later.
There is so much money in the medical industry that everyone wants a piece of the pie. I don't want an accountant making any medical decisions for me!

My mom died because a doctor wouldn't listen to her. She did not have insurance and went to urgent care where many that just want pills go. She was sent away four days in a row when she kept telling them there was something wrong in her chest. They pretty much ignored her and kept telling her she had some mild something or another. Never once would do any tests even though she begged for them. I didn't know until it was to late. She kept an hourly journal the last week of her life like she knew the end was near. I just wish she would have called and said something and I would have made sure she got taken care of. The day she dies she called my sister at 5am but didn't want to go to the ER because of the cost and while waiting for the doctors office to open she died. I was in my way there and about an hour away.

I agree there is far too much politics involved in health care. I honestly don't know of any good fix.

Chris said:

My mom died because a doctor wouldn't listen to her. She did not have insurance and went to urgent care where many that just want pills go. She was sent away four days in a row when she kept telling them there was something wrong in her chest. They pretty much ignored her and kept telling her she had some mild something or another. Never once would do any tests even though she begged for them. I didn't know until it was to late. She kept an hourly journal the last week of her life like she knew the end was near. I just wish she would have called and said something and I would have made sure she got taken care of. The day she dies she called my sister at 5am but didn't want to go to the ER because of the cost and while waiting for the doctors office to open she died. I was in my way there and about an hour away.

I agree there is far too much politics involved in health care. I honestly don't know of any good fix.

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Oh man, I'm so sorry to hear that happened to your mother. Unfortunately, that sort of thing happens so often. Particularly with women. There are all sorts of studies that have found that women generally are not taken as seriously by medical professionals and don't get the same standard of care. I think I read that on average, men will be made to wait 45 minutes in an ER while women are made to wait 60+. Men are more likely to be taken seriously and get tests run while women are often dismissed and told they are exaggerating or being babies about things. Women are more likely to complain of pain and have more severe pain but are less likely to be given pain medication.

There was an article about some of the more disturbing cases where women were ignored by doctors-- there was one particular woman who was in the ER over 13 hours and nobody would run tests or help her. If it hadn't been for her husband physically grabbing a doctor and convincing him to examine his wife, she would have died. And that woman had insurance.

It always makes me sad when I hear about people who died or had severe complications because the insurance wouldn't approve necessary treatment. I've seen it happen to a few people I know.

And my mother has had to fight with her insurance for refusing to cover a doctor's bill because the hospital was covered but that particular doctor was not on their "preferred" list. She did successfully argue with them and get them to pay. If the hospital itself is "preferred" then it should cover all of the doctors in it.

I was reading somewhere that one of the wealthiest people in the country made their money selling medical supplies. I don't have a problem with medical companies making some profit, but I think that there needs to be some sort of balance where they aren't making an obscene amount of profit to the detriment of people's lives. When people are dying because they can't afford an essential medicine that is selling for thousands of $ while only costing about $1 or less, there is something wrong.

Apparently no one knew how complicated solving healthcare would be.:rofl: