Weather Head to Socket Meter SER/SEU Cable Upgrade

Hello Folks,

Originally the old electrical point of entry installation consisted on 100 amps everything (socket meter, circuit breaker, cables, etc). So it has 2/0 cables traveling down from the weather head via a metal conduit to the meter socket (meter socket is new and is rated at 200 amps). I measured the outer diameter of the conduit, and it seems to be around 2 inches; as indicated before the current service entrance cable travelling through the conduit is 2 / 0 (100 amps), and I am in the process to replace it with aluminum 4 / 0 (200amps) since everything will be 200 amps in the near future. Would I need to change the conduit and the weather head cap or would the current one suffice?


Also, I understand that 3 feet of 4 / 0 cable shall be hanging out of the weather head up on the roof for the utility tie-in. The power to the house has been disconnected at the weather head, but apparently the utility did not disconnect the neutral, and since it is a neutral I would believe that it would be safe to cut it off? On top of that there are some prongs or crimped connectors on the my end of the cable that I believe the utility company installed in order to tie in both cables, and again I would need to cut them off in order remove the old cable and the new cable would not have them; but at first it (prongs or crimps termination) seems to be something that the utility company would simply reinstall on my new 4 / 0 cables. The pic below depicts the situation:

Yes you will need to cut off any crimps, they're garbage now and cannot be used again. It is safe to cut the neutral. I don't know your jurisdiction, but in my area (mid Atlantic) the contractor electrician is responsible for tying back into the utility at the service point.

tk3000 said:

Hello Folks,

Originally the old electrical point of entry installation consisted on 100 amps everything (socket meter, circuit breaker, cables, etc). So it has 2/0 cables traveling down from the weather head via a metal conduit to the meter socket (meter socket is new and is rated at 200 amps). I measured the outer diameter of the conduit, and it seems to be around 2 inches; as indicated before the current service entrance cable travelling through the conduit is 2 / 0 (100 amps), and I am in the process to replace it with aluminum 4 / 0 (200amps) since everything will be 200 amps in the near future. Would I need to change the conduit and the weather head cap or would the current one suffice?


Also, I understand that 3 feet of 4 / 0 cable shall be hanging out of the weather head up on the roof for the utility tie-in. The power to the house has been disconnected at the weather head, but apparently the utility did not disconnect the neutral, and since it is a neutral I would believe that it would be safe to cut it off? On top of that there are some prongs or crimped connectors on the my end of the cable that I believe the utility company installed in order to tie in both cables, and again I would need to cut them off in order remove the old cable and the new cable would not have them; but at first it (prongs or crimps termination) seems to be something that the utility company would simply reinstall on my new 4 / 0 cables. The pic below depicts the situation:

Click to expand...

Since the distance from the weather head to the supply terminals of the Meter Enclosure is probably short you may want to consider replacing the Aluminum wire in the mast now with Two Ought Copper. You are going to have to tell us the actual size of the mast conduit so we can check if it is large enough for Two 2/0 AWG & One 1/0 AWG Cu conductors. Until you provide us with an actual internal diameter of the conduit I'm only able to guess. Yes I know that you have said it has Two Ought (2/0) in the mast conduit now but before telling you to put 2/0 copper in there I will want to check that it will not exceed the allowable fill for the actual size conduit that was installed all those years ago. That said paying for the short lengths of copper that you might be able to use would sure save a lot of work replacing the mast.

"Since the distance from the weather head to the supply terminals of the Meter Enclosure is probably short you may want to consider replacing the Aluminum wire in the mast now with Two Ought Copper. You are going to have to tell us the actual size of the mast conduit so we can check if it is large enough for Two 2/0 AWG & One 1/0 AWG Cu conductors. Until you provide us with an actual internal diameter of the conduit I'm only able to guess. Yes I know that you have said it has Two Ought (2/0) in the mast conduit now but before telling you to put 2/0 copper in there I will want to check that it will not exceed the allowable fill for the actual size conduit that was installed all those years ago. That said paying for the short lengths of copper that you might be able to use would sure save a lot of work replacing the mast."

Yeah, I did consider that possibility (use copper instead of aluminum). It certainly would be a better option instead of replacing the conduit and the upper cap for the weather head. But, often, the cable from the electrical company are aluminum and so are the contacts inside the socket meter, and I always avoid connection between these dissimilar metals. Otherwise, copper would be always a better choice. I head that it is twice the price of the equivalent aluminum ser/seu cables, and can only buy it at electrical supply store (no home center seems to carry it); but as you said it is a short cable so it does not have much of an impact price wise.

I went ahead today and took the measurements with a digital caliper: the outer diameter is 2.5 inches, and the inner diameter is 2 inches. Would a 4/0 aluminum cable exceed the filling rate for this conduit? Also, while trying to remove the old cable found out that the cap screws are rather corroded and are not bulging; so I went ahead and socked them with penetrating oil and will wait till next day.



thks!

In our locality , if the service drop uses the service riser as the point of attachment , the service riser conduit must be at least 2" rigid galvanized steel conduit , to have adequate mechanical strength .

Here , the power company does the tie in after the city inspects and issues a green tag .

God bless
Wyr

tk3000 said:

Since the distance from the weather head to the supply terminals of the Meter Enclosure is probably short you may want to consider replacing the Aluminum wire in the mast now with Two Ought Copper. You are going to have to tell us the actual size of the mast conduit so we can check if it is large enough for Two 2/0 AWG & One 1/0 AWG Cu conductors. Until you provide us with an actual internal diameter of the conduit I'm only able to guess. Yes I know that you have said it has Two Ought (2/0) in the mast conduit now but before telling you to put 2/0 copper in there I will want to check that it will not exceed the allowable fill for the actual size conduit that was installed all those years ago. That said paying for the short lengths of copper that you might be able to use would sure save a lot of work replacing the mast.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I did consider that possibility (use copper instead of aluminum). It certainly would be a better option instead of replacing the conduit and the upper cap for the weather head. But, often, the cable from the electrical company are aluminum and so are the contacts inside the socket meter, and I always avoid connection between these dissimilar metals. Otherwise, copper would be always a better choice. I head that it is twice the price of the equivalent aluminum ser/seu cables, and can only buy it at electrical supply store (no home center seems to carry it); but as you said it is a short cable so it does not have much of an impact price wise.

I went ahead today and took the measurements with a digital caliper: the outer diameter is 2.5 inches, and the inner diameter is 2 inches. Would a 4/0 aluminum cable exceed the filling rate for this conduit? Also, while trying to remove the old cable found out that the cap screws are rather corroded and are not bulging; so I went ahead and socked them with penetrating oil and will wait till next day.

thks!

Click to expand...

Two inch is fine for Four Ought. If you can get the screws off then you are all set. If you cannot get the screws off then you will need to carefully cut the weather head off of the mast and replace it with a strap on type. You need not be concerned about the connections because nearly all meter enclosures are rated for both Cu and Al wire. The power company has the high pressure connectors on their trucks so they can connect to either type of conductor. But since the Two inch mast is large enough for the Four Ought Al that question is moot.

--
Tom Horne

The screws on the weather head cap were too corroded (even though it did not appear all that corroded) , and the fact that they were slotted head screw and thus not much grip power on top of being corroded and stripped did not help either. So, I went ahead and cut the screw with a bolt cutter and a reciprocating saw in no time.

The new weather head cap is a 2 inches one with some plastic insert with plastic knock out for the cables. I dropped the cable through the conduit and attached the cap to hold the the cable in place as shown below:




Does that seem a proper to install it? I assume that the yellow cable will be the neutral, the black ones are the two hots. I did not strip the sheathing from the cables at the weather head end (I assume that the utility will do that).

Looks fine . We never use screw on weather heads . We always use clamp on weather heads .

Did you go ahead and terminate the wires , inside the meter base ?

Hint , it is easier to slide the individual wires up or down , to get them inside each meter base lug , before you put the weather head " monkey face " and " hat " in place .

Looks like Al wire . Did you use Petrox ( or simular producr ) when you terminated the wires ?

We usually strip a inch or two of insulation from the end of the free hanging neutral , to further indicate it is a neutral .

Apparently , around here , at least , the power company uses a different color code than we do . We tape a neutral white , if we did not use white insulated wire . The white tape must mean a hot to the power company . This does not turn out well .

God bless
Wyr

tk3000 said:

The screws on the weather head cap were too corroded (even though it did not appear all that corroded) , and the fact that they were slotted head screw and thus not much grip power on top of being corroded and stripped did not help either. So, I went ahead and cut the screw with a bolt cutter and a reciprocating saw in no time.

The new weather head cap is a 2 inches one with some plastic insert with plastic knock out for the cables. I dropped the cable through the conduit and attached the cap to hold the the cable in place as shown below:

Does that seem a proper to install it? I assume that the yellow cable will be the neutral, the black ones are the two hots. I did not strip the sheathing from the cables at the weather head end (I assume that the utility will do that).

Click to expand...

It is a minor quibble but some utilities require that the three conductors be brought out through holes in a triangle pattern leaving an unused knockout between each one with the neutral conductor at the bottom. Check with your power utility in advance to see if your installation meets their service standards. Make sure that you have left enough conductor at the service head to form drip loops customarily that is three feet.

WyrTwister said:

Looks fine . We never use screw on weather heads . We always use clamp on weather heads .

Did you go ahead and terminate the wires , inside the meter base ?

Hint , it is easier to slide the individual wires up or down , to get them inside each meter base lug , before you put the weather head " monkey face " and " hat " in place .

Looks like Al wire . Did you use Petrox ( or simular producr ) when you terminated the wires ?

We usually strip a inch or two of insulation from the end of the free hanging neutral , to further indicate it is a neutral .

Apparently , around here , at least , the power company uses a different color code than we do . We tape a neutral white , if we did not use white insulated wire . The white tape must mean a hot to the power company . This does not turn out well .

God bless
Wyr

Click to expand...

Yeah, I slided the wires individually. It went down smoothly.

I haven't terminated the wires yet. I will strip some outer sheathing with the utility knife and make the connections. Regarding the anti-oxidation compound, I have something called ideal nolax; is it a good option? I was wondering if it should be used with dissimilar metals only (aluminum in contact with copper)?

There is only one wire with a yellow strip, it seems intuitive that it should be the neutral, in any case I would imagine that they could simply check inside the meter socket. I contact them to make sure everything is ok.

thks!

hornetd said:

It is a minor quibble but some utilities require that the three conductors be brought out through holes in a triangle pattern leaving an unused knockout between each one with the neutral conductor at the bottom. Check with your power utility in advance to see if your installation meets their service standards. Make sure that you have left enough conductor at the service head to form drip loops customarily that is three feet.

Click to expand...

Sure enough, I will double check with them about the triangle pattern.

I left plenty of cable hanging out (probably 4 or 5 ft). Always better to error on the plus side in this case!

thks!

There are several brands of the antioxidant for Al wire . I am sure the ideal brand is fine .

May not be necessary to strip a little insulation off the end of the yellow wire . Customs vary from place to place .

But , be sure to terminate the wires at the top of the meter base , before you call the power company to make it hot .

God bless
Wyr

WyrTwister said:

There are several brands of the antioxidant for Al wire . I am sure the ideal brand is fine .

May not be necessary to strip a little insulation off the end of the yellow wire . Customs vary from place to place .

But , be sure to terminate the wires at the top of the meter base , before you call the power company to make it hot .

God bless
Wyr

Click to expand...

Yep, I will check with the utility company to make sure on how to leave the setup.

I stripped the end of the wires at the meter socket end as shown below:



and will use the nolax compound to avoid corrosion over time.

Note: I was traveling away from home, so things were going very slowly.

I suggest you go ahead and terminate the meter base , before you end up loosing the lugs .

As you probably know , the neutral goes in the middle , with a hot on the left and on the right .

Are you going to bond the grounding electrode conductor , at the meter base or at the first / main disconnecting means panel ? NEC allows at either spot / place . Local practices may dictate one or the other .

God bless
Wyr

WyrTwister said:

I suggest you go ahead and terminate the meter base , before you end up loosing the lugs .

As you probably know , the neutral goes in the middle , with a hot on the left and on the right .

Are you going to bond the grounding electrode conductor , at the meter base or at the first / main disconnecting means panel ? NEC allows at either spot / place . Local practices may dictate one or the other .

God bless
Wyr

Click to expand...

I will bond the ground to the circuit breaker panel inside the house. It is a #4 gauge copper wire that will travel without any conduit to a hole drilled at the bottom of the siding and creep up to the circuit breaker panel where it will be bonded to the ground bar. It will be a little bit unsightly though

The city follows the NEC 2011 with no exceptions. So, I would imagine that it would ok.

There should be a screw or a copper jumper that bonds the neutral bar to the panel can / enclosure .

Do you have a separate ground bar and a separate neutral bar ?

God bless
Wyr

tk3000 said:

I will bond the ground to the circuit breaker panel inside the house. It is a #4 gauge copper wire that will travel without any conduit to a hole drilled at the bottom of the siding and creep up to the circuit breaker panel where it will be bonded to the ground bar. It will be a little bit unsightly though

The city follows the NEC 2011 with no exceptions. So, I would imagine that it would ok.

Click to expand...

Make sure that the outdoor portion of your Number Four American Wire Gauge (#4AWG) Grounding Electrode Conductor (GEC) will not be considered Exposed to Extreme Physical Damage by the Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ); which would be the electrical inspector in your case. Some Inspectors consider anything that is exposed to close approach by mechanized landscaping equipment to be exposed to Extreme Physical Damage. Ride on lawn mowers and edgers or trimmers are particular concerns for such ispectors. If it is adjacent to any kind of vehicle parking area most inspectors see that as exposed to Extreme Physical Damage. If the inspector says that it is so exposed you will have to protect it with Schedule Eighty Non Metallic Conduit (NMC) or Rigid Metal Conduit. Additional protection for the conduit itself may be required if it is exposed to the movement of motor vehicles.

Best I remember , if you upgrade it to # 2 AWG copper , protection is not required ?

I , personally would look it up in the NEC and do it that way , if the inspector had a problem with it .

God bless
Wyr

WyrTwister said:

Best I remember , if you upgrade it to # 2 AWG copper , protection is not required ?

I , personally would look it up in the NEC and do it that way , if the inspector had a problem with it .

God bless
Wyr

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Using Four AWG instead of Six AWG avoids the requirement for protection from "physical damage." The same is not true of conductors exposed to "Severe Physical Damage." What constitutes exposure to Severe Physical Damage is a judgement call on the part of the inspector. The two situations which I know of that have caused inspectors to ask for additional protection for number Four AWG and larger conductors are proximity to vehicle movement, and grass that runs right up to the wall on which the Grounding Electrode Conductor (GEC) is mounted because the GEC will regularly be exposed to mechanical edgers or trimmers.

WyrTwister:

I got what seems a very nice 200 amps Siemens circuit breaker panel about a year ago: it comes with a copper ground rod, the buses are all copper, and it is really very large. I don't have the panel in front of me to look, but as far as I can remember there is a copper rod bonding the neutral bar to the ground bar.

hornet:
The weather head is right above the socket meter to wherein the service entrance cables descend into, the ground rods are just below the socket meter box besides the foundation and footing of the house (maybe 2 feet from and along the exterior walls) and the path that the ground wire travel is very short (maybe 12 ft all inn all ). And they all convert tot he circuit breaker panel which maybe 5 feet from the socket meter. Besides, at the end of the day the area where the ground rods reside together with the ground wire will be covered with ground, landscape fabric, and river rocks (so hopefully no plants and weeds will dare to grow in there). Anyhow, I don't have a problem put it in a conduit once it exits the ground (can not be in a conduit at the segment that is connected the ground rods). Is Schedule Eighty Non Metallic Conduit (NMC) a form of pvc or liquidtight conduit (flexible)?

Don't worry, it will never be exposed to anything remotely close to physical damage. But just in case and to avoid any possible fuss I can put it inside a very short conduit.


thks!