Cap Freezing Pipe

Hi

I live in Nova Scotia in a house built around 1850 and over the years there's been a fair bit of barbarity committed in terms of building maintenance and installation.

One endemic problem has been a copper pipe that freezes. I'm attaching some pictures of the arrangement. This pipe runs off the mains into the building (mains is A in the photos) which runs parallel to and about a foot away from a stone outside wall in the basement floor. The pipe (B) comes off the mains, runs along the floor to the outside wall, goes up the wall (C) and then divides with a T at the top of the wall. One way from the T goes through the wall to an outside non-freeze wall hydrant and the other goes along the basement ceiling to under the downstairs shower on the floor above. From the condition of the copper, it seems like these pipes have been in this damp floor for many years. I am rather concerned as to their condition and I'd be grateful for any thoughts on this. They are pretty oxidized as you can see from the pictures.

Unfortunately, the combination of the mains pipe (A) being near the outside wall and the pipe (C) running up the stone outside wall and then running outside to the hydrant means that it is prone to freezing. With a temperature below zero fahrenheit it always freezes and it does this a couple of times every winter.

I'm planning to resolve the freezing by removing the feed from the mains in - literally cutting off the section of pipe from the mains in where it is marked B on the photo up to just below the T at the top of the wall and then inserting an alternate feed into the other end of the pipe near the shower, more towards the center of the building and away from the cold outside wall. I'm also inserting a valve in the section of the pipe that leads to the outside hydrant a few feet from the outside wall so I can close this and drain water out of the pipe before winter so it can't freeze and transmit the cold and ice back into the building.

I have a couple of sharkbite caps to cap off the copper vertical copper pipe at the bottom near the mains pipe and just below the T at the top of the wall.

Other than the condition of the copper mains pipe, my other concern is whether a sharkbite fitting would work to cap the section of pipe on the floor at B. The pipe is pretty oxidized as you can see and I wonder how workable capping this with a sharkbite fitting would be. Another possibility would be to cap the pipe as it starts to go up the wall at about point C in photo 2 where it is in better condition. I would need to saw the pipe off rather than using my pipe cutter though. The pipe is in good shape at the top of the wall below the T so that's no problem.

Thanks for any thoughts/suggestions

Pavesa

Welcome to the site.
I just want to clairify a few things.
Is this a crawl space with dirt floor unheated?
Furnace and water heater is not in this space?
Is it just the one pipe that freezes?
Is the floor above insulated?
The frost line depth in NS is 48"?

we have a member. Matt who lives in Nova Scotia, he is a Jam up, certified plumber
holler at him, he knows your area,and how things are done there


http://www.plumbingforums.com/forum/index.php

Matt30
Senior Member


Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia
Posts: 1,100
Liked 400 Times on 316 Posts
Likes Given: 122

Hi, thanks for the responses.

This is a basement to the house, it's about 6'6" high. I have an oil forced-air furnace but scarcely use it because I have a woodstove that heats the entire house much more cheaply and effectively. It doesn't heat the basement which is normally at about 40f in the winter but falls to just above freezing when it's particularly cold outside. That is apart from next to the outside walls when it drops below freezing.

The area where the pipe is located is just a dirt floor with loose stones covering.

The hot water tank and furnace are located in the basement. The water tank has additional insulation over it.

The floor above is insulated with 4" fiberglass batts

There was another pipe that froze which ran along the top of the same wall that the pipe we're talking about here runs. It was a galvanized steel pipe to the toilet and actually started leaking slightly after a freeze last winter through a rusty weak spot, so I've removed it as part of this project and I'm replacing it with PEX. Rather than run the replacement pipe along the wall, I'm running it perpendicular to the wall from the PEX pipe to the shower I mentioned I'm installing in my post. I'm betting perpendicular means less exposure to cold wall and less likelihood of freezing. I think PEX resists splits from freezing better than metal pipes? The other pipes don't freeze.

I'm seeing 48" as the frost depth in NS on postings when I google it, although I live in the Annapolis Valley which is much milder than other parts of the province.

Pavesa said:

Hi, thanks for the responses.

This is a basement to the house, it's about 6'6" high. I have an oil forced-air furnace but scarcely use it because I have a woodstove that heats the entire house much more cheaply and effectively. It doesn't heat the basement which is normally at about 40f in the winter but falls to just above freezing when it's particularly cold outside. That is apart from next to the outside walls when it drops below freezing.

The area where the pipe is located is just a dirt floor with loose stones covering.

The hot water tank and furnace are located in the basement. The water tank has additional insulation over it.

The floor above is insulated with 4" fiberglass batts

There was another pipe that froze which ran along the top of the same wall that the pipe we're talking about here runs. It was a galvanized steel pipe to the toilet and actually started leaking slightly after a freeze last winter through a rusty weak spot, so I've removed it as part of this project and I'm replacing it with PEX. Rather than run the replacement pipe along the wall, I'm running it perpendicular to the wall from the PEX pipe to the shower I mentioned I'm installing in my post. I'm betting perpendicular means less exposure to cold wall and less likelihood of freezing. I think PEX resists splits from freezing better than metal pipes? The other pipes don't freeze.

I'm seeing 48" as the frost depth in NS on postings when I google it, although I live in the Annapolis Valley which is much milder than other parts of the province.

Click to expand...

I like Frodo's suggestion to contact a local that is available for advice.

I would put the main under ground by at least a foot with what ever the plastic is they use for that and bring it up near the water tank where there will be some heat and run all the branch lines as close to the floor between the joists above insulation.
I don't think one pipe is better than another for freezing, you have to protect them all.
A frost free faucet only works if the inside parts are in a heated area, it might work if it entered the space between the joists above insulation, but I too would put a valve in the furnace area on a dedicated line. Evan if they don't freeze they do need to be worked on from time to time so being able to turn off just the line is a plus.
I would think a soldered joint to that copper will give you a better chance of success.
If the main comes into the house at that level, I would build a box over that and insulate it.

Hi,

nealtw, thanks for the posting and suggestions.

In the 9 years we've lived here, we haven't had the mains line itself freeze even when we've had temperatures down to -8f for a few days with a dip to a low of -13f in the middle.

The mains does come in pretty much at floor level so a box and insulation would be a good idea.

The house has an L and that part of the floor is concreted and is where the water tank is located so it wouldn't be possible to run the mains all the way underground to it.

I really don't want to use a pro on this. Apart from the cost, their work is really problematic. The guy who owned this house actually managed the water and sewerage installation in our village and had pro's in to do everything and they made a real screw up. Eg/

OSB sewer pipes not correctly sealed together so sewer gas escapes

Sewer pipe length of 16' entirely unsupported

Sewer pipe out of the building sloped uphill out of the building (!)

drainage pipes from some appliances slope uphill

hot water tank located at the bottom of a very tall T away from where it's used in the bathroom and kitchen meaning a high inefficiency

Outside faucet attached to the same feed pipe as the shower - turn the faucet on and the person in the shower is scalded

pipes not buried in the floor

pipes unnecessarily run along outside walls so they freeze

To name just a few. My experience of employing professionals here has been quite consistent with this sort of work. I'd rather think hard and ask occasional questions on a forum like this than suffer the disaster of professional work here.

That link was to a sister site to this one where you have people like here ready to help with suggestions, it's not a place to hire a pro, just get better answers.

Oh, I see. Great, thanks for the link. I'll definitely bookmark it!

Insulate the pipes . If more extreme , consider adding heat tape , also .

Replace corroded water pipes . Where possible replace steel pipes . Copper is the traditional standby . PEX is the latest and greatest . I just replaced the water line from the house to the water meter with 1" PEX . I hope it last longer than my Wife and I .

God bless
Wyr

Hi WyrTwister

thanks for the posting, much appreciated..

In addition to the new water main to the house , we re-piped the hot water a year or so ago & we re-piped most of the cold water right before Christmas .

Pier and beam construction . I was able to bet my old , fat body under the house to work . Barely . :-(

I have used the brass SharkBite caps 1 or 2 times , to temporary cap off a pipe , while I was re-routing the cold water line . In one instance , the push fit cap leaked a little . ( The exterior of the pipe was corroded / pitted .

I removed the cap . Next I had to use the torch to boil enough of the water from the copper pipe to allow the pipe to become hot enough , to to solder . I tinned the end of the copper pipe heavily with solder & then used a rag to wipe off the excess , while the solder was still molten .

This filled in the pits well enough for the push fit cap to seal .

The other place where I used a SharkBite push fit cap was on a length of new copper . I reamed the inside & outside of the end of the pipe . And polished it with emery cloth . I knew I was going to eventually going to need to solder a copper coupling there , to extend the pipe .

The SharkBite push cap worked well there . When I was ready to extend the pipe , I used the orange plastic removal tool and took it off & I still have it , around here , some where .

The brass push fit fittings are expensive . Traditional solder on copper fittings are cheaper . One of my big problems soldering copper is getting residual water out of the copper pipe . This is a must , in order to get the copper hot enough to solder properly . And with a cap , there is no place for any steam to go & it builds up some pressure . This messes things up .

Horizontal pipes are easier to drain & if you still have a little residual water , the bread trick usually works .

Now , for your situation . You have to have somewhere to turn off the water . In our situation , the shut off valve is on the city side of the water meter .

If it were me , I think I would install a valve in the line going up the exterior wall to the outside faucet ( "C" ) . I would probably re-pipe the horizontal part and the vertical part . With the vertical part spaced a little off the exterior wall & insulate both the horizontal and vertical sections .

I would cut this pipe run from the part feeding the down stairs shower . I would try to find a spot one direction or the other , down the main pipe "A" where I could rise up vertically , not on an exterior wall . Then pipe back to the spot where you can re-connect to the pipe going to the 1st floor shower .

If that does not work , I would probably run a second pipe , from "A" along side "C" , insulated and off the exterior wall and supply the 1st floor shower that way .

I think I would try to space both pipes off the exterior wall , far enough to allow insulation 2 layers deep , if necessary .

http://www.homedepot.com/b/Plumbing.../Ntt-pipe+insulation?Ntx=mode+matchall&NCNI-5

God bless
Wyr

Hi Wyr

thanks so much for your extensive and detailed reply to my question, I very much appreciate it. A lot of food for thought! One of the shortcomings of my plan is that the downstairs shower remains connected to the same pipe as the outside faucet. This isn't so serious now as I installed an upstairs shower room so the downstairs hardly gets used, but it still isn't an ideal configuration. Your proposal puts the shower on a different feed pipe which would avoid that. Thanks very much for your thoughts.

Yes , I would put the outside faucet & the down stairs shower on separate pipes with a ball valve inline with the pipe to the faucet . And insulate both new pipes .

Does the pipe feeding the downstairs shower continue on to feed other parts of the house ? Or , does it stop there ?

If it also feeds other parts of the house , there might be value in upgrading it , as far as practical , to 3/4" ?

God bless
Wyr

Hi Wyr

thanks for the additional suggestions. At the moment pipe C just feeds the outside faucet and the downstairs shower so putting the faucet on its own feed would leave a pipe dedicated just for the shower.