Moving a switch; now light doesn't work?

Hey guys,

I've just removed a partial wall (also known as a "pony wall") that separated our living room and dining room. It contained an outlet, and the switch for our living room's overhead light. I'm going to relocate them in the wall the partial wall was attached to.

Before I fed the leads back in and reinstalled the hardware, I thought I'd connect the new switch to be sure that it, and the light, were working. (The original switch was a slider only; I'm replacing it with a combination slider/on-off.)

But I just did that, and the light won't go on. (I included the ground connection, and there's only one switch; it's not a three-way.) I tried a regular toggle; it didn't work either. But there is power on the outlet. They're on the same breaker.

The overhead's a four-light fixture with new LED bulbs, and it worked fine before I took out the wall. It's good, heavy household line. All I did was disconnect the hardware and remove the wall around the leads—they weren't bent or damaged in any way. What could I be overlooking?

How many cables are in the switch box, is it just a switch leg with one cable with black white and ground?

Dumb question, but when removing the wall, were the bulbs damaged in any way? I know for incandescent bulbs, too much banging around them will break them. Shouldn't have that issue with LEDs, but wouldn't hurt to check.

Was this a partially switched outlet?

zepper said:

(The original switch was a slider only; I'm replacing it with a combination slider/on-off.)

The overhead's a four-light fixture with new LED bulbs,

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Some dimmer switches are not compatible with LED bulbs.

Did you test the toggle switch with meter?
If the switch is good and you put it back like you found it then you have a problem with the light fixture.

havasu said:

Some dimmer switches are not compatible with LED bulbs.

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Darn it. I'm slipping in my ole age.

Describe the wire run, before the demo, because you are missing the hot conductor for the switch leg.

Did both the cables for the switch and the recep. junction at the switch box or the recep. box?

Thanks for your replies.

nealtw said:

How many cables are in the switch box, is it just a switch leg with one cable with black white and ground?

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The cables (sorry, guess I should've called 'em that) consist of one black/white/ground for the outlet, and the same for the switch (though the polarity doesn't matter there of course). So just one cable ran to each thing.

Kabris said:

Dumb question, but when removing the wall, were the bulbs damaged in any way?...

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As I mentioned, it's an overhead light—it's on the ceiling. The only time I've gotten near it was to switch the bulbs from incandescent to LED, which I did about a month ago, and they were working fine till now.

kok328 said:

Was this a partially switched outlet?

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"Partially switched"? You mean was one of the outlet's two plugs controlled by a switch? (I've heard of an entire switched outlet, but not a half-switched one—that's pretty fancy!) No, this outlet isn't switched at all.

kok328 said:

Did you test the toggle switch with meter?

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Ah, good point! See, that's why I ask about these things here—it's obvious to you, but not me.

Okay, there is indeed no power at the switch (though there is at the outlet). So it's not the switch itself. So unless a problem at the light could cause there to be no power at the switch (could it?), it must be the cable or its connection, right?

Snoonyb said:

Describe the wire run, before the demo, because you are missing the hot conductor for the switch leg...

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Missing the hot? Not sure what you mean. There's black, white and ground. (As I mentioned, it's not a three-way, so there's no traveler.)

Snoonyb said:

Did both the cables for the switch and the recep. junction at the switch box or the recep. box?

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All I have right now are the two cables coming out of a hole in the end stud of the adjoining wall where the partial wall was attached.

On one side of the remaining wall is a four-switch box for other lights in the vicinity. Only one of those is on the same breaker with the switch and outlet I'm working with. So I assume both of these cables tie in with that switch, if that's what you're asking.

The hole the cables come out through are just the right size for them; they're held there with no movement, so I don't see how they could've shifted inside. (I imagine they're clamped at the box, too.) I haven't stressed the cables—neither is bent, just slightly coiled. So I'd find it hard to believe the switch cable was damaged somehow.

Nonetheless, I guess the next step is to pull the switch that's on the same breaker and be sure everything's still connected, right? I'll do that now—but if you have any more ideas, chime in!

zepper said:

Thanks for your replies.The cables (sorry, guess I should've called 'em that) consist of one black/white/ground for the outlet, and the same for the switch (though the polarity doesn't matter there of course). So just one cable ran to each thing.

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Thanks

zepper said:

Missing the hot? Not sure what you mean. There's black, white and ground. (As I mentioned, it's not a three-way, so there's no traveler.)

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One of the conductors in a switch leg must be hot for the switch leg to operate.

zepper said:

All I have right now are the two cables coming out of a hole in the end stud of the adjoining wall where the partial wall was attached.

On one side of the remaining wall is a four-switch box for other lights in the vicinity. Only one of those is on the same breaker with the switch and outlet I'm working with. So I assume both of these cables tie in with that switch, if that's what you're asking.

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You need to find out where the conductors for the switch come from, either the ceiling box or the 4s box on the wall, because that will be where you lost the hot.

Maybe I'm missing it, but if you have one cable for the outlet and one for the switch, how is the switch connected to the light? Of the two cables coming out of the old wall, have you checked to see that they both carry power? it's possible that only one is the line. At this point photos or at least a diagram of what you have would be helpful.

Well, I'm afraid it's beyond me.

I still don't see how it could be a loose connection in the box. That would imply I'd pulled on the cable while removing the partial wall. But I was real careful about that—and the cables are fitted so perfectly going through the stud, I can't move either one of them even when I try.

Guess I'll have a beer, stop thinking about it for a while, and call an electrician on Monday. I just thought it might be something simple and logical that I might be overlooking. Thanks anyway!

Please refer to post #5. Some dimmers do not work with LED bulbs. Your problem may be the new dimmer switch itself. Hook the old dimmer switch (slider) back up and see if the lights work. If they do then you know right a way that it is the switch which is the problem and then just get the correct switch to work with the LEDs.

afjes_2016 said:

Please refer to post #5. Some dimmers do not work with LED bulbs. Your problem may be the new dimmer switch itself. Hook the old dimmer switch (slider) back up and see if the lights work. If they do then you know right a way that it is the switch which is the problem and then just get the correct switch to work with the LEDs.

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Thanks, but as I've mentioned:

• It turns out there's no power at the switch, so the problem's elsewhere.

• I'm already using identical dimmer switches on three other LED fixtures. They're specifically rated for LED, halogen or incandescent.

• I tried a regular toggle and it didn't work either (not surprising, considering the connection's dead).

zepper said:

I still don't see how it could be a loose connection in the box. That would imply I'd pulled on the cable while removing the partial wall. But I was real careful about that—and the cables are fitted so perfectly going through the stud, I can't move either one of them even when I try.

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Actually, it doesn't imply that at all and has nothing to do with the cable stapling inside the wall cavity, or the box clamp system.

What it does alert you to is that during the circuit/s assembly, there is a loose or disconnected connection and there is a strong possibility that the conductors were just stuffed into a wirenut without having been twisted together,

I've figured it out. I connected the switch cable to power, and the light worked. So obviously power was being provided there and isn't anymore.

This means there must've been a 3rd cable in the partial wall, connecting the outlet's and switch's neutral (white) leads, and the switch must've been between the hot (black) leads of the outlet cable and switch cable. I must've removed this extra cable and forgotten about it. (There's so much electrical stuff going on here, I wouldn't have noticed it.)

Sorry I didn't realize this sooner. Interesting puzzle! Thanks for your ideas. Maybe someone else in a similar situation will see this and benefit from it.

Hmm—I tried adding "[SOLVED]" to this topic's title by editing my original post, but it didn't work. (It works on other forums I visit.) Any way to do that?

What everyone should know now is take pictures

nealtw said:

What everyone should know now is take pictures

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That's right—you may as well get to the overwhelming stuff right away! (For some reason, this reminds me of being married...)

zepper said:

Hmm—I tried adding "[SOLVED]" to this topic's title by editing my original post, but it didn't work. (It works on other forums I visit.) Any way to do that?

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I do not believe this board has that ability. But what you can do is edit your original post and at the beginning of the post on the first line enter "Update- [SOLVED]". This way someone reading it will see it and know. That is what I do on boards that do not have that function. It won't appear in the title but it will be seen in the body of the post.