Looking for recommendations on insulating my 1,600 sqft metal building

[jsundmint]

Hello everyone! I just joined the forum so I could get your feedback and recommendations on the best way to approach insulating my 1,600 sqft metal building. I just purchased the commercially zoned property so I could turn this shop into the new storefront/studio for my business. I'm located in Bay St Louis, Mississippi down on the Gulf Coast with plenty of heat and humidity so I'd like to do this right and as affordable as possible. I'll be doing it myself with assistance from friends when necessary. There are some holes that have been cut out in the past that I will be sealing off, a pair of exhaust fans up at the top that I'll close off, and a Goodman package AC unit that will be installed outside with return air near the floor and the duct blowing out higher up pointed at the garage doors. I will be removing one of the garage doors and building in window/door front to let in natural light.
Here's some photos for a 360 view. The ceiling is already insulated, though I'm not too familiar with metal building insulation and I'm not sure how good it is, only that it's noticeably cooler than standing near a wall in the shop.
I have a lot of home renovation experience so feel free to share your opinions and recommendations in a higher than elementary format lol. Thanks in advance!

 

[havasu]

Welcome to the forum. I'm not much help, but the only insulation I know that works on a hot metal building that works properly is spray on closed cell insulation. Yep, I know it is really pricey to have done.

 

[jsundmint]

Welcome to the forum. I'm not much help, but the only insulation I know that works on a hot metal building that works properly is spray on closed cell insulation. Yep, I know it is really pricey to have done.

Thank you sir! I had it done for a cathedral ceiling renovation in a previous home and it was pricey, and surprise: the final cost was about 15% higher than I was quoted too. I think it would be great to have it done on a building like this where my electrical is all ran through conduit pipes and wouldn't be inaccessible inside the foam. There's no telling what it would cost me.

 

[havasu]

I know there are lots of hungry tradesmen these days. Just for fun, give one a call and see the going rate for the spray in insulation.

 

[Snoonyb]

So, when you modified your HD, had you considered the mandalorian for the headlight, as opposed to the old school HARLEY?

 

[jsundmint]

So, when you modified your HD, had you considered the mandalorian for the headlight, as opposed to the old school HARLEY?

Hey man; happy when people recognize the Mandalorian. My bike is an Indian Challenger and the custom build is still in the works. The custom seat is the current piece that's getting done. I made a radiator cover with the Mandalorian mythosaur skull, swapped out the Indian headdress on my fender for the little whistling birds launcher (sculpted it in 3D and printed it, put LEDs in it). Lots of other stuff too but perhaps the coolest is the custom paint job was done with Alumaluster from Imperial Surface (the same paint used for Mando's armor in the show). The other colors of paint are also the same exact paints used for the rest of his armor. Still lots of work to do on it, it was just photobombing and not really photoshoot ready.

 

[Snoonyb]

Hey man; happy when people recognize the Mandalorian. My bike is an Indian Challenger and the custom build is still in the works. The custom seat is the current piece that's getting done. I made a radiator cover with the Mandalorian mythosaur skull, swapped out the Indian headdress on my fender for the little whistling birds launcher (sculpted it in 3D and printed it, put LEDs in it). Lots of other stuff too but perhaps the coolest is the custom paint job was done with Alumaluster from Imperial Surface (the same paint used for Mando's armor in the show). The other colors of paint are also the same exact paints used for the rest of his armor. Still lots of work to do on it, it was just photobombing and not really photoshoot ready.

Just a short away from the thred; OOPS, thought it was an HD. Son has the same and has to convince wifee about mods. Radio is louder than the pipes, needs to change that. Work in progress.

 

[PJB12]

Maybe it's worth considering a radiant barrier for insulation, especially since you live in a hot climate.

It has provided us with amazing results both for comfort and energy cost savings. We used it extensively at work and in my home. We did extensive in-lab testing for both hot and cold weather use. In hot climates, the energy saving was huge. In cold, the energy saving was very good.

Basically, a radiant barrier with a gap on one side or the other of 19 mm or more will reflect radiant energy back to its source. It will also act as a low emitter, preventing radiant energy from escaping. Gold and silver have the best reflectivity, but are cost prohibitive. (NASA uses gold on the heat shield tiles on vehicles that will re-enter the atmosphere, such as the space shuttles.)

Pure, un-coated aluminum reflects 97% of the radiant energy and acts as a 3% emitter. (3% of radiant energy is emitted, 97% is blocked)



If You Are Interested:
The stuff is easy and fast to install. It's surprisingly inexpensive, too. Actually, in some areas, one can use radiant barrier, skipping mass insulation and still meet code.

It might be worth calling Attic Foil Com at 800 595-8772. They have nice and helpful people who can explain very well and help you choose the best product and installation method for your building.
I'm sure there are other reputable dealers as well. (We use Attic Foil Com because the products all tested to be as-claimed and the price has always been good.)

The Department of Energy and NASA have some interesting articles and studies about radiant barriers.


Background: When first studying radiant barriers, we worked with the chairman of ASTM's Radiant Energy Commission. He also was the consultant to NASA and U.S. D.O.E. We learned quite a bit.


Some Key Points & Hints-
A) It must be pure, uncoated aluminum. Any coating will reduce or negate the benefits.
Get it from a reliable supplier. (Avoid the import fakey stuff. We tested several and they weren't pure aluminum.)
B) The bubbles in the bubble stuff foil add about zero to the energy saving. (And it is expensive.)
C) Perforated foil is often the best, as moisture can pass through. Un-perforated can act as the moisture barrier if needed.
D) Mylar type meets most fire codes because it will burn so fast that the structure does not have time to ignite.
E) The foil with scrim is very, very durable and easy to work with.

I hope this helps.
Paul

 

[jsundmint]

Maybe it's worth considering a radiant barrier for insulation, especially since you live in a hot climate.

It has provided us with amazing results both for comfort and energy cost savings. We used it extensively at work and in my home. We did extensive in-lab testing for both hot and cold weather use. In hot climates, the energy saving was huge. In cold, the energy saving was very good.

Basically, a radiant barrier with a gap on one side or the other of 19 mm or more will reflect radiant energy back to its source. It will also act as a low emitter, preventing radiant energy from escaping. Gold and silver have the best reflectivity, but are cost prohibitive. (NASA uses gold on the heat shield tiles on vehicles that will re-enter the atmosphere, such as the space shuttles.)

Pure, un-coated aluminum reflects 97% of the radiant energy and acts as a 3% emitter. (3% of radiant energy is emitted, 97% is blocked)



If You Are Interested:
The stuff is easy and fast to install. It's surprisingly inexpensive, too. Actually, in some areas, one can use radiant barrier, skipping mass insulation and still meet code.

It might be worth calling Attic Foil Com at 800 595-8772. They have nice and helpful people who can explain very well and help you choose the best product and installation method for your building.
I'm sure there are other reputable dealers as well. (We use Attic Foil Com because the products all tested to be as-claimed and the price has always been good.)

The Department of Energy and NASA have some interesting articles and studies about radiant barriers.


Background: When first studying radiant barriers, we worked with the chairman of ASTM's Radiant Energy Commission. He also was the consultant to NASA and U.S. D.O.E. We learned quite a bit.


Some Key Points & Hints-
A) It must be pure, uncoated aluminum. Any coating will reduce or negate the benefits.
Get it from a reliable supplier. (Avoid the import fakey stuff. We tested several and they weren't pure aluminum.)
B) The bubbles in the bubble stuff foil add about zero to the energy saving. (And it is expensive.)
C) Perforated foil is often the best, as moisture can pass through. Un-perforated can act as the moisture barrier if needed.
D) Mylar type meets most fire codes because it will burn so fast that the structure does not have time to ignite.
E) The foil with scrim is very, very durable and easy to work with.

I hope this helps.
Paul

Thank you Paul! I will look into this. I'm liking the sound of it.

 

[lgolding]

you need a commercial building installation company to supply if not install. It’s just larger elements than residential, same principals. This stuff is pretty easy, there is a large industry geared just for these types of buildings with standard parts for this.

They will provide you commonly used batt insulation with a white vinyl vapor barrier on one face. They do have options for the ceiling insulation with a foil vapor barrier on the top side to act as that radiant barrier discussed previously.

Your roof is framed with what’s called purlins not joists, they’re a z shape and are just about 8 inches tall or more and everything‘s very clear between them but they’re spaced far apart. Same with your walls. Those are called wind girts and they are spaced far apart as well and they are at least six or 8 inches deep. So this means you’ll be getting six or 8 inch thick stiff bath insulation. At least, it’s more dense and stiff commercial because the dimension of the insulation bays are much larger than residential at only 16 or 24 inches wide. This stuff is 4 feet or more wide.

It’s usually installed with stick pins. These are a little adhesive discs that go on the ceiling panels or wall panels or the framing faces and they are basically a nail sticking out to impale the batt. panels. The insulation is shoved onto it, and it pokes through the batt, then they push on a friction clip to hold it in place by the vapor barrier. there are other anchoring methods but this is fastest and therefore most affordable. some folks just suspend the batts with long wires or rods to support between roof framing.

The white vapor barrier will drape across the bottom of your roof purlins, you won’t see those any more. It should go right over the roof beams so they are still exposed for your lights and other MEP routing. The walls will be similar w a vapor barrier taped in sheets or rolled right over the horizontal wind girts, but the vertical columns will be exposed.

This means that you have to make sure that the very few things that you have between the framing where the batt will go is relocated outboard. You look pretty clear, there’s not much there in the way. Even your galvanized rod cross bracing seems clear below the bath ceiling plane. seems all of your wiring is on framing face clear of batts as it should be. you look ready for insulation.

When it’s done, you’ll have white vinyl barrier on all surfaces with taped off square dots everywhere. most warehouses leave the ceilings like that. on walls you can cover w a number of protective surfaces over that, again made for the commercial buildings like this. Long span. They make rigid plastic dense sheets like siding w deep flutes because of the long span. You could do board and batten in the fancy areas of your office. The commercial is deep or fluted because it has to span so far between framing. But, any wall material found in house would work if you provide free standing wall framing offering studs closer together. Normal basement finishing stuff.

So insulation first with VB, and wall finishes later as a secondary operation. Search for photographs of metal building insulation and you’ll see the ceilings look very soft and the batt and vapor barrier drapes down just a little bit, but it’s rather neat and does insulate pretty well. looks like a well covered residential crawl space.

It can be DYI but it’s larger stuff overall than residential.

 

[PJB12]

That's a very nice step-by-step that LGolding wrote in #10.

If you go with the mass insulation, skip the ones that come with an aluminum face. Same for aluminum coated foam & plywood boards.

Testing may brands showed that they were not pure aluminum, thus the radiant performance was greatly diminished.

My own house had cotton batting mass insulation with foil for the vapor barrier. Since the foil touched the back of the plaster's blue board it became a conductor of heat and cold.

With those products, people end up with the foil sandwiched tightly to one surface or another. (Example- Foam board under rood decking. Foil touching mass insulation or roof deck.) They just negated the radiant saving and actually increased heat gain/loss.

When there is Not a gap of 19 mm or more on one side or the other, aluminum becomes a great conductor of heat. You can drape aluminum (perforated) later under the mass insulation. You need that 19 mm or more gap on one side, so that will be the foil-to-floor gap.

Paul
PS: I think you will enjoy your Goodman A/C. I don't have much experience with residential ones, but their commercial roof top units tend to last forever and use standard parts, thus far less expensive than proprietary parts.

When I've done a few family and friend jobs with residential Goodmans, they looked quality. One of my brothers lives at the very tip of Michigan's Keweenaw peninsula. He has a Goodman furnace and it's not failed him yet, despite constant Lake Superior wind and sometimes (-) 40-F temperatures. (Actually it did fail once. The combustion air intake was only 16 feet off the ground. Blowing snow piled high enough to block the intake. I then learned that people there skip the combuation air intake.)

 

[PJB12]

I forgot to mention, if you wish to install foil across the purlins or the girts you'd buy it in the width that suite the spacing. Forty-eight and 60" are common sizes.

To speed installation, there are clips that can be pushed into the edge of the framing member with the foil captured under the clip. There are a bunch of styles. Many are made for conduit, so you can ignore the conduit clip or use it later for something.
A sample photo of one style is attached below.

Also available are barbed clips specifically for insulation. Easy Clip is one brand name.
They are fast and easy to install. If you put foil only, you can skip the self-drilling screw because foil is light. You can use mass insulation and put perforated radiant barrier foil on the bottom, capturing both on the barbed skewer. (Photo below) The gap from the foil to the floor is the required "19 mm or more" radiant gap.

Another plan for foil is VHB tape. It will last forever even in heat and cold, but it is kind of expensive. VHB tape is used to hold glass cladding on skyscrapers.

Paul

 

[jsundmint]

you need a commercial building installation company to supply if not install. It’s just larger elements than residential, same principals. This stuff is pretty easy, there is a large industry geared just for these types of buildings with standard parts for this.

They will provide you commonly used batt insulation with a white vinyl vapor barrier on one face. They do have options for the ceiling insulation with a foil vapor barrier on the top side to act as that radiant barrier discussed previously.

Your roof is framed with what’s called purlins not joists, they’re a z shape and are just about 8 inches tall or more and everything‘s very clear between them but they’re spaced far apart. Same with your walls. Those are called wind girts and they are spaced far apart as well and they are at least six or 8 inches deep. So this means you’ll be getting six or 8 inch thick stiff bath insulation. At least, it’s more dense and stiff commercial because the dimension of the insulation bays are much larger than residential at only 16 or 24 inches wide. This stuff is 4 feet or more wide.

It’s usually installed with stick pins. These are a little adhesive discs that go on the ceiling panels or wall panels or the framing faces and they are basically a nail sticking out to impale the batt. panels. The insulation is shoved onto it, and it pokes through the batt, then they push on a friction clip to hold it in place by the vapor barrier. there are other anchoring methods but this is fastest and therefore most affordable. some folks just suspend the batts with long wires or rods to support between roof framing.

The white vapor barrier will drape across the bottom of your roof purlins, you won’t see those any more. It should go right over the roof beams so they are still exposed for your lights and other MEP routing. The walls will be similar w a vapor barrier taped in sheets or rolled right over the horizontal wind girts, but the vertical columns will be exposed.

This means that you have to make sure that the very few things that you have between the framing where the batt will go is relocated outboard. You look pretty clear, there’s not much there in the way. Even your galvanized rod cross bracing seems clear below the bath ceiling plane. seems all of your wiring is on framing face clear of batts as it should be. you look ready for insulation.

When it’s done, you’ll have white vinyl barrier on all surfaces with taped off square dots everywhere. most warehouses leave the ceilings like that. on walls you can cover w a number of protective surfaces over that, again made for the commercial buildings like this. Long span. They make rigid plastic dense sheets like siding w deep flutes because of the long span. You could do board and batten in the fancy areas of your office. The commercial is deep or fluted because it has to span so far between framing. But, any wall material found in house would work if you provide free standing wall framing offering studs closer together. Normal basement finishing stuff.

So insulation first with VB, and wall finishes later as a secondary operation. Search for photographs of metal building insulation and you’ll see the ceilings look very soft and the batt and vapor barrier drapes down just a little bit, but it’s rather neat and does insulate pretty well. looks like a well covered residential crawl space.

It can be DYI but it’s larger stuff overall than residential.

Thank you so much for the detailed write-up!
I've seen a lot of buildings over the years where the insulation looks like this:

I'm not sure how long it took for it to get to that state but I do have concerns about batt insulation for this reason. Any insight you can offer on why some end up this way?

I do see that newly installed, it looks pretty great. I believe this is the look you were referring to

 

[jsundmint]

I forgot to mention, if you wish to install foil across the purlins or the girts you'd buy it in the width that suite the spacing. Forty-eight and 60" are common sizes.

To speed installation, there are clips that can be pushed into the edge of the framing member with the foil captured under the clip. There are a bunch of styles. Many are made for conduit, so you can ignore the conduit clip or use it later for something.
A sample photo of one style is attached below.

Also available are barbed clips specifically for insulation. Easy Clip is one brand name.
They are fast and easy to install. If you put foil only, you can skip the self-drilling screw because foil is light. You can use mass insulation and put perforated radiant barrier foil on the bottom, capturing both on the barbed skewer. (Photo below) The gap from the foil to the floor is the required "19 mm or more" radiant gap.

Another plan for foil is VHB tape. It will last forever even in heat and cold, but it is kind of expensive. VHB tape is used to hold glass cladding on skyscrapers.

Paul

Thank you Paul! Would you mind linking a product example and maybe an installed photo so I can see what you mean with the radiant barrier? When I search it up, I'm getting a lot of different kinds and I think it would help if I can avoid the bad/subpar not-truly-aluminum stuff.

 

[PJB12]

I apologize that I don't have photos. Most in my house is covered by drywall or ceiling. Below is one shot of a wall in a bathroom at home that I did a month or so ago.

Here is a link to many photos from others: DIY Project Gallery - AtticFoil™ Radiant Barrier - Do-It-Yourself Professional Grade Radiant Barrier


To Cut: I put the roll on one of my spool horse pairs with a piece of conduit for a wide roller bar and pulled out what I needed, like a giant roll of tin foil. Marking it for cutting was done with a dry erase marker. Following the perforations gives a square line. It cuts easily by laying it on a board and using a utility knife, but kitchen scissors work really fast.

The stuff in the photo is stapled to the studs with T-50 1/4" staple gun staples. Polyken foil tape works to seal it to juntion boxes & stuff if you are using non-perforated and want the vapor barrier.

Learning:
A good place for some basic knowledge is: AtticFoil Videos: Installation and Info - AtticFoil™ Radiant Barrier - Do-It-Yourself Professional Grade Radiant Barrier

Products:
Here is a link to what I've mostly used at home: 48" Wide Perforated Double Sided Radiant Barrier Foil - Best Selling - AtticFoil™ Radiant Barrier - Do-It-Yourself Professional Grade Radiant Barrier
That is real stuff, not metalized film. It comes in 48" wide or 60" wide and, I think, 26" wide. You can get it non-perforated if you wish for it to be a vapor barrier, We used a ton of non-perf at work.

They also have other types. If you give them a call or send a note explaining your project and include photos, they will give product selection and installation advice. They are really good about that.

I hate to keep mentioning only one company, but this company is 100% legitimate and has the best prices that I've found for real stuff. I've purchased from other legitimate companies who all are unfortunately now out of business. (Covid wrecked a lot of businesses.)

And, you are right- there are a lot of fake stuff sellers (as we learned by buying and testing samples).

Enjoy Your Project & New Building!
Paul

 

[BvilleBound]

Unfortunately, 'radiant barrier insulation' is Snake Oil for most projects. It looks cheap, quick and easy to install - but provides minimal benefit. Standard insulation is always more effective. This has been repeatedly proven by building scientists:

(1) Reflectix and similar reflective / radiant barrier products provide almost no R-value by themselves; just R-1 for Reflectix. In short, a radiant barrier is not insulation. The claims on the package are based on an assembly, including a sealed air gap that you must create when you install it. This air gap provides almost all of the claimed insulation R value. You cannot simply staple it to the sheathing of your wall, for example.

(2) The maximum insulation that 'reflective barrier' can provide inside a wall is R6 -- even with sealed air gaps between all of the studs. This is much less effective than simply filling the stud bays with foam board or rock wool, which provide R-4 to R-5 per inch of thickness

(3) Note that the air gap MUST be sealed. So if you install a perforated reflective barrier, that sharply reduces the maximum R-6 value.

(4) Reflective insulation is NOT effective in winter, because cold cannot be 'reflected' and warm air inside your home is not radiant. Reflectix (a leading brand) claims R-7 for a cathedral ceiling in summer, for example, but only R-1 in winter.

(5) There is one place a radiant barrier can provide some benefit - under a vented hot roof in the summer. The most effective location: simply lay the reflective barrier on the floor of your attic. This will reduce heat flux through the ceiling and cut HVAC bills by 3% to 10%, depending on how much insulation. Unfortunately, dust that collects on the surface reduces the reflectivity, so performance drops steadily over time. You can also fasten a reflective barrier to the bottom of the rafters - to create a sealed air channel between the soffit and ridge vent. The entire channel must be carefully air sealed to prevent leaks. Dust will also reduce performance of the reflective barrier over time.

For more information see:

https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/stay-away-from-foil-faced-bubble-wrap
https://neo.ne.gov/info/neq/neq-archive/2014-08-aug/aug2014.02.htm
https://constructioninstruction.com...19/05/Reflective-Insulation-Cold-Climates.pdf

 

[BvilleBound]

One more note on condensation risks with foil faced foam board and shiny bubble wrap: During a deep remodel project in Massachusetts, we stacked sheets of foil faced polyisocyanurate foam board against a wall in the basement. The next morning, there was a puddle of water under them. Puzzled, I searched for the source of the leak - then realized that water had condensed on the foil surfaces and trickled down. The foil surface is super-insulated on the back side by the foam board, and if the dew point drops in a humid environment - condensation results. This would create problems in a humid environment or a basement installation, where condensation would damage the walls.

We encountered the same problem with a Reflectix radiant barrier (shiny bubble wrap) in the wall of an enclosed unheated porch in inland (but still humid) Massachusetts. The drywall at the bottom of the wall began to crumble. When we removed it, I found that condensation had been accumulating on the Reflectix and trickling down on the drywall.

So be careful about where and how you install a radiant barrier.

 

[PJB12]

There is so much imcorrect negative information about radiant barriers. If they did not work, NASA would not use them. You would not bake a potato in foil. Your can would not have it over the catalytic converter. Etc, Etc. Etc.

From BVileBound: "Unfortunately, 'radiant barrier insulation' is Snake Oil for most projects."

It's real. Check NASA, check Cal Tech, check ASTM, check dozens of others. Check California's department of energy. Ask them why some areas allow only radiant barrier as building insulation. Ask ANY physicist.

My own home's heating and cooling invoices before and after prove it, too. You should have witnessed the temperature drop in one room as I was installing it in the attic above. We also did extensive testing in one of the labs at work. It works to minimize heat gain and heat loss. It works as a reflector (97%) and a low emitter (3%).

In just one part of an NFL stadium in Michigan, the heating invoice dropped by 71.5% after adjusting for heating-degree hours. (The area was 6-sides concrete, 3 exposed walls, exposed roof and cantilevered floor.)

From BVilleBound: (2) The maximum insulation that 'reflective barrier' can provide inside a wall is R6 -
I don't want to pick a fight, but have no peaceful way of saying: When people speak of R value and radiant barriers, they are not fully educated about radiant barriers and certainly not about what R-value is measuring.
R-Value measures resistance to conducted heat flow from one area to another. Radiant barriers prevent radiated heat flow from one area to another. If a seller talks about r-value, run away. They are either scamming you or uneducated.

Quote From BVilleBound: (3) Note that the air gap MUST be sealed. So if you install a perforated reflective barrier, that sharply reduces the maximum R-6 value.
DO NOT PUT SOLID if a moisture barrier exists. You will trap moisture. Again- It isn't R-Value we care about.

(Quote From BVilleBound: 4) Reflective insulation is NOT effective in winter, because cold cannot be 'reflected'
Air is mass. The radiant barrier does not care at all about air. It cares about radiant energy. Radiant barriers are wonderfully effective in winter.

The room's objects (mass) radiate energy to the ceiling material. It conducts through the plaster and mass insulation to the foil that is laying in attic. The foil is a low emitter because there is a 19 mm or larger gap on the attic side, so the energy can not be emitted to the attic. After the mass insulation is saturated, the rest of the heat stays in the room. (Except for the 3% emission). When the room wants more heat, that which is trapped in the mass radiates into the rood. (Walk past a brick wall in winter just after the sun set. It's radiating the energy it absorbed during the day.)
It the foil were on the ceiling in the room, only 3% would go to the mass insulation.

Remember the difference between Conducted, Convected and Radiated energy and the concept of a radiant barrier will become clear.

Quote From BVilleBound: (5) You can also fasten a reflective barrier to the bottom of the rafters - to create a sealed air channel between the soffit and ridge vent.
Leave the bottom and top open so air can freely flow from the eave vents to the ridge vent. If you have pot vents instead of a ridge vent, build channels to vent all bays to the pot vents. This will take creativity.
Radiant barrier doesn't have to be sealed to work, but areas with gaps obviously won't reflect. The only time one should care about sealing it is if you are using it as a moisture barrier.

Regarding dust that BVilleBound mentioned, perhaps look at it like one more home maintenance project to vacuum the floor once in a while (like in 5 - 10 years). In one attic, I put the foil down and installed 3/4" sleepers on the joists, then the attic floor. Instant dust shield and the 19mm (3/4") gap were created.

I chose to go with the physicists and try radiant barrier. We also did testing at work with scale model buildings. I also have it at home. But, others are just as steadfast that it is hype.


This could argue forever. I just want Jsundmint (the original poster) to be aware of radiant; barrier's benefits so he or she can pick whichever insulation he or she feels is best for the project.

Paul